EP69: Interview With Tile Money Host Luke Miller

Yeah, thank you. Got started in the tile installation industry at about 17 years old in Tucson, Arizona. And I really, you know, took to it. And I ended up moving out to New York when I was 20 and I was set in tile in New York City. I got a different education out there, of course, and continued my apprenticeship in tile. And then when I was 24, I moved out to California and continued tile and got even more apprentice. And why I say that is like from the East Coast to the West Coast to the middle of the South, North, wherever. they're installing tile slightly different. They're using slightly different building practices. Sometimes different manufacturers are represented regionally. So I kind of got a well-rounded view of tile. And then in 2008, I received my California specialty tile license. It's the C54 California license for tile specifically. That is my trade. I've never really, I've dabbled in a little bit here and there. During the recession, I got into property maintenance. So I got a little bit. more familiar with some of the painting and sheetrock and a little bit of light electrical and stuff like that, light plumbing, maintenance stuff mainly. But then I got back into tile once the recession started. Once the recession was over and about things, work started picking up and I decided it would be a good time to be a contractor. And so I capitalized on that and was building a business, but I still struggled with the business side of things, even though I had my craft down. And I started listening to podcasts and I really was able to change my business around by just applying the things I was hearing in these podcasts. And so I was searching for a specific podcast that was talking to me, the tile installer contractor. And frankly, it just did not exist. There wasn't a tile podcast, a specific tile industry podcast that I could find. And this was like 2017,2016. when I was really starting to get into this podcast world. So that's why I decided to launch the Tile Money podcast. And I narrowed in on the subject because I thought, what better than to provide an outlet for business discussion, something that was lacking and something that I felt was needed in the tile industry. And it took off. We're coming up on four years and 200 episodes. This week, in fact, was our 200th episode. And it's growing, growing. We got a Facebook group and I'm just really happy to be able to be a part of the movement of helping and assisting tile contractors to build sustainable, profitable businesses.

Yeah, it kind of is for sure. I mean, we were dealing in New York City, we were dealing with, you know, I was working in high rise buildings. So we were very much, we learned, you know, waterproofing. I learned waterproofing for the showers. I mean, you really can't have water spilling over. you know, going down floors in New York City in tall buildings, I should say, it's the last thing you want, right? So we were really attentive. The company I worked for out there was really attentive to that. In California, they've been building with what we call mud or it's a cement and Portland and lime for your walls. And it's a thick, it's, you know, three quarter, five eighths to three quarter inch thick walls, mud based, you know, cement based walls that you would. kind of consider old world. And then their waterproofing is a tar. They call it pot mopping. It's a black tar that they would put on the roof. A while ago, I don't know if it was the 60s or 70s, the roofers came up with a formula that could work in showers. And so they waterproof that. And that's pretty much very predominant on California. So I learned that system. And you won't learn that system anywhere else. So like in New York and everything, I learned. topical waterproofing, as well as vapor barrier, water mitigation. Those are two different systems. We can talk about them a little bit, but there's really two different ways to build a shower, either water in or water out or topical waterproofing, which is kind of the most dry. That'll be the most dry for your shower. And that hot mop is the water in, water out system. So I learned more about that in California, but there's other little things too. Like I said, different manufacturers are present, different products to try.

It depends. I don't think you're alone. I was on a podcast the other day and they asked me what my favorite part was. The first thing that came to my mind was grouting. It's really not the act of grouting so much as it is you're at the finish line. You can actually enjoy. your work and you can put those final touches on it. You know what I mean? So what, you know, I'll repeat, it's not like the act of grouting that I'm just like, Oh God, I've just loved grout day. I mean, it's, you don't have to think about it for one. So by the time your brain's, you know, my brain's fried, you know, solving different problems along the job, but then grouting is just like, all right, I know, you know, it's like riding a bike, you know, you just do it. You can think about whatever. It's a good Friday, Friday job. Right. But the point is, you get to see the final product. And so I think your feelings and my feelings are similar to most people's. Detail-orientated people are really good with tile because they can just zone in. There's so many little details. Those of us who are maybe a little more distracted or whatnot have a little more difficult time when it comes to some of the details. I think that's just the way it is.

Yeah. Porcelain panels.

Depends on what country, but I mean, porcelain panels are pretty universal. They're these huge panels, five feet by 10 feet big. Yeah.

Do you? Yeah. See, and I sympathize with those feelings and I can expand on that. I just want to touch on the panels real quick. The panels, so they're... They're closer to glass, the glass industry, than they are the natural stone or, you know, like you're saying, marble slabs. First of all, they're as thin or thinner than glass. They can be as thin as three and a half millimeters thin, and that'll have a mesh resin back, epoxy type backing on it. And then the typical stuff we like to work with, you know, we'll work with it all, but... eight millimeters. So just under, you know, right around, you know, eighth inch, under a quarter inch for sure is kind of the typical eight millimeter size of these panels. So moving these things around, being that thin saves some weight. They're still heavy. You know, you still pretty much need two guys to lift these things and they'll break easy like glass. So you can't really, you know, it's, it's a different, different kind of trade. So there's a lot of logistics to it and moving and handling is, is the biggest aspect of these things. I mean, There are some homes where you just wouldn't even be able to get a full panel in, in the bathroom, you know?

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely not for everybody. I mean, a lot of tile people. tile installers will say no thank you right off the bat like you just did. What that smells like to me is opportunity for the brave, for the ones, yeah, for the specialists.

That's right.

Yeah, thank you. So that is the panel portion of it. So with Tile Nation, I have three partners. So with Tile Money, it's me, myself, and I. It's a podcast, it's a community, and we're building it up and evolving that. With Tile Nation, I have three partners. So there's four of us. We're all in the industry. Two of my partners in that are full-time panel installers. So they're installing these full-time. They might do some other tile work as well or flooring, but pretty much they're doing panels every week. And then the other one is a flooring installer, a contractor, tile guy. And together, we came together to provide advanced training in this trade. There's a lot of one and some two-day trainings. They're more classroom style. We wanted to take it deeper. Adam Christensen came up with a five-day program. So we're actually in class for five days and it's a hands-on class. So you're working with a team of three people, three to four at max, and you are installing a mock-up shower and a mock-up bathroom floor. And that's our advanced training with Tile Nation. We do have some larger goals and some more things we're going to attack in the future. But this is kind of what we saw as a pressing need and something we could execute on. So we've done three trainings in Omaha at our facility there in Omaha. And we're going to do two more this year, one in September and one in October.

2022. As of 2022, we have some other big goals in the industry. We're working on some things. And we're also, with Tile Nation, since I have partners, I felt confident to launch a mastermind group, like a group coaching for tile contractors. So we're doing some online advanced education and we're doing the panel education. Next year or the year after, we're going to get into showers. What's happened in the tile industry, as I mentioned earlier, the California contractor license, it's up to states, individual states, and even individual counties and individual cities even will sometimes have different licensing for tile. And for the most part, by and large, it's just no licensing. It's just get your $75 business license and then you're a tile guy, $500. So what that's done... $500 in tools, you could probably be a tile guy. So what that's done is it's kind of really lower the barrier to entry. The reason we think that's a mistake, especially for people building custom shower assemblies, because a shower is basically a sink. So when we have plumbing, we have all these regulations because you don't want water going into your home. But what's kind of fell through the cracks is the shower. It's the... In some states, in some counties, the plumber will waterproof it or make that shower basin. And in some counties, in some states, the tile guy will. And there's some confusion in places. Some of the plumbers are doing things wrong. Some of the tile guys are doing things wrong. And there's no barrier to entry. There's no nationwide license that says you are a custom shower fabricator. And so that's one of my partners, Craig Herrman, has been working on this for five years. and we're going to continue to work on it. We've kind of hit the pause button because we realized that we need to strengthen Tile Nation as a core before we attack something this large. It's a very large goal. It's ambitious. And Craig and Tile Nation have made the most advancement that I know of to this day for shower licensing or a nationwide tile license. And we really hope to implement this in the coming years. Like I said, we're kind of... cruising along and strengthening our core business and maturing as a business before we attack that one.

Like there's no requirement whatsoever.

And we are working with the larger industry. Craig has a technical committee with the TCNA, which is the Tile Council of North America. And that committee is, I think, about a dozen people. Working with at least two industries, the plumbing and the tile industry, and then Craig, since he's kind of taken this upon himself and made a lot of advancement, he's somebody who's went to work on this problem and really outlined a viable solution. And the reason he's so passionate about it is we see failures all the time as contractors and handymen and whatever. I mean, you show up and somebody is in tears because they bought something they were, you know. sold by a slick salesman perhaps, and then it failed, or it's just complete garbage. And they're having to redo it. And they might already be 5,10,20, I mean, whatever amount of money into this thing. And they're sitting there crying. And there's literally no recourse because there's no license. And oftentimes, the people who will build failed showers, I mean, they undercharged. So if you build a shower for $2,000 or $3,000, which a lot of people are doing, believe it or not. They don't have money. You know they don't have money in the bank. What's that homeowner supposed to do? They can't really go after a broke contractor because he doesn't have money and he might just change his number or whatever, you know, disappear. So that's really what spurred Craig's mission on was seeing too many of these failures and not having a viable solution. So really, we're looking at this as a solution, yes, for the end user, the homeowner, the client who bought that shower because... They look to the city and the city says, who'd you hire? And there's no solution. There's no licensing. So it's ultimately the city's responsibility to provide their taxpayers a working solution to this prom. And so we're providing cities nationwide the solution to their shower prom because their taxpayers don't deserve to be kind of hung out to dry if they buy a shower and it fails. I mean. And, you know, with a plumbing, a plumber or an electrician, you know, we talk about their licenses like they're important as they are because it's electricity and it's water. But when the shower, you know, it's that, like I say, it just got overlooked or fell in between the cracks. And there's some tricky wording in there. I don't want to go into it all. And furthermore, I'm not the best person to. Craig, my partner is. But there's some really things we could get into the weeds with him. But it's an interesting subject for sure. Like I say, it's a big goal, but it's a worthy cause. And, you know, I think it was, I forget who said it, but, you know, success is the pursuit of a worthwhile goal. And we believe this is a worthwhile goal.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and the sad thing is, and you're right, a lot of times they don't have $10,000 or they don't believe they do, or they just don't want to spend it. Or maybe they bought the shower for five. Like, let's imagine, I've seen this scenario a hundred times. They'll buy a shower, say for 5,000 and it really should have been a $10,000 shower and it fails. And then they call the professional and they say how much to remodel or rip it out and replace it. And it's supposed to be a $10,000 shower. So, and then you got to rip the old one out. So you might come up with a number like 12,000. Right. Well, they say that's way too expensive. The last guy only charged me five and send the... Then they go searching for another person to give them another $5,000 shower. Oftentimes, that one will leak as well. And I'm not just making this crap up. I mean, I'm 20 plus years in this industry. I've seen it a bunch of times. It's crazy.

Sure. Yeah, those will fail pretty quick.

Right.

Well, I'll just relate my experience. So in 2008, I got licensed as a tile contractor. And this issue isn't just tile. I mean, I think a lot of the trades have this issue is we focus on the craft, right? We become craft, you know, for those of us who do spend the time to do an apprenticeship and really take, we really take a lot of pride in the skill of it. But often, like in my case, you know, in my case was different, I guess, but often what we see is apprentices leaving the nest early. And I guess I'll say I did this too, but I moved to New York and then I continued my apprenticeship there. They'll leave the nest before they're really tradespeople because they're not being treated well in the company. I think if companies could work on developing a better career path, we would retain more employees and be able to build scalable companies if we treated our employees a little better. And I've found and highlighted... I love highlighting companies that do this on my podcast because it's like, this is the way. You guys are all complaining about employees leaving after you get them to be a tile installer and then they leave. follow these people who are retaining 70,80% of their employees. Just do what they're doing. And so, but the problem is we have this resistance to talk. And I don't know if it's American culture or just tradesmen or whatever, but we have a resistance to talk business. We like to talk shop. We like to talk tools. We like to talk products. We like to talk craft, but we don't like to talk business. And in 2008, when I got my contractor license, I was slow on work. And I was on the John Bridge forums and I was asking business questions and I kind of got shot down. So I just stopped asking business questions there because they didn't want to talk about business. They wanted to talk about waterproofing and which blade to buy, all these things, which is great. Those are great conversations to have. But nobody was talking about business. Well,10 years later, I'm now in Facebook and it's talking to some of the same people in the same conversations. Which blade to buy? which waterproofing to use, yada, yada, yada. Well, nobody wanted to talk about business again. And so that's, I'm just emphasizing why I, again, felt the need to start the Tile Money podcast in the Facebook group as well to really start that conversation, just to provide a place for people to talk business. And that's all we do. I delete posts where they're like, which waterproofing to use? I mean, I'll direct them to another group and some of those posts. slip by me, but the mainstay of the group is business discussion. So, you know, if we only could just talk a little bit more about business and share some business insights and strengthen each other's businesses, it'd be good for us. It'd be good for our employees and it's good for our clients and communities, you know, and we can retain employees longer and give them a career path. Be proud of our... We can stop doing things under the table because we're making enough money. I mean, we can be proud to be business owners instead of like, well, I'm a contractor. I come in and I work for an hourly rate. And I take pride in my work, but I don't take pride in my business. So we need to be more prideful of our business because it's something to be proud of. And building a good business is good for the community, the tile community and your local community, your cities and all that good stuff. So that's... You know, that's really my answer. I hope it wasn't too long winded there.

No, I get it. No, I agree. I agree with that 100%. One thing in my life and when I was a contractor that really helped me was reading and probably listen to it, read it however you want to consume it. The book by Robert Kiyosaki, The Four Quadrants of Business, I think. And the first quadrant, I guess, was it employee? And then the second quadrant is self-employed and then business owner and then investor. And I think that's the way it goes. And so the leap from employee to self-employed isn't very big and it can look and feel the same. Because like you're saying, if I go out and I'm a solo tile installer and I am a business owner in a sense, but 100% of my paycheck relies on me. So I'm still employed by every single client. In other words, if I'm not working, I'm not making money. So then you would graduate. And some people are perfectly fine there. And I love, especially in the tile industry, because it is an artistic trade and it's a final trade. We do have a lot of single installer companies and they're artists. And for these people, if you're talented and you put your time in, like you said, it's a process, but 10,15,20 years. You could be charging $1,000 a day. You could be charging $2,000 a day. You could be charging $3,000 a day. It's really up to you and your client. And if you're doing super high-end work, now why would anybody need to charge that much? Well, again, it's you and you alone. You break a leg. You get sick for a month. What are you going to do? So you have to have reserves. And your reserves have to have reserves, especially if you're a family man. you know, you're taking care of your family and then all of a sudden you're sick, you don't have a business. And that becomes really apparent quick. So as you graduate to the business owner, now you have things in place to where you could get sick for a month and eventually your business would be okay if you could do a little communication or whatnot. You know, that's really the goal.

Yeah, that's true too. Yeah. It takes a lot. If you're a subcontractor and you're relying on six to 12 or whatever number of builders or contractors to feed you work, your overhead is less. You might not even need company shirts or company lettering. Like you said, you might not want it because you've got your six, you've got your 12, whatever, you've got your number. And maybe you add one or two every year and you drop one or two. You should always be, for those of you subcontractors, that's what I would recommend. Always be searching for a better, Fit. Add one or two. Yeah, trade up. Get rid of the low-paying ones. Get rid of the ones who are causing you a little bit of headaches. And your business will continue. And that's how you scale that business is you're always looking. But you're not... It depends on how large or how fast you want to do it. But I agree. Once you graduate to, oh, okay, I'm going to sell to homeowners. I'm going to sell to direct to the client, the end user. Now, all of a sudden, you have a lot more overhead. A lot more time invested in selling that job and your prices better be more because you got to cover that overhead and that extra expense. Plus, just keep the cost up. Like figure out what that builder is charging for those showers. Figure out what the average shower is going for in your area and why would you want to undercut it? You know, if you're good, you would want to price it a little higher.

That's the case a lot.

mean i I'm going to agree. You know, I recently kind of discovered, I recently discovered, you know, this kind of my ego was getting in the way of the podcast and my business, my businesses and things of this nature. And so I realized I was, you know, I'm doing a lot more self-reflecting and personal growth as I approach 40, you know, it's like, I don't want to remain the same. I don't want to, why would I want to remain in my 30s mentality? You know, why would I want to, you know, you should always be looking and looking to grow your personal mindset as well. And so I kind of came to the realization that my ego was causing issues and I'm working on getting rid of that ego. And with Tile, yeah, I mean, we get egotistical easy. You know, we do take a lot of pride in it. It's a finished product. So those of us who really care have to, you can never make it perfect, but you're striving for it. You know, and as you're leaving that job, you're picking things apart. every time. And with the business, the thing I see is someone shares a success story. Hey, I charged $10,000 for this shower. And you'll have a dozen guys or gals jumping in there and saying, well, guys do it more than gals, but they'll say, well, I charge six. So either they'll say you're ripping your client off or no, you're lying. It's a fish story. You're exaggerating because I charge six. In my opinion, it's like they're just limiting themselves. They're putting the glass ceiling on and they're saying, I'm already there. Well, you got nowhere to grow. So it's your ego keeping you there.

That's a good point. Yeah. And I came to that realization, too, Brad, because. I was living on the central coast of California in Monterey, California, and then later in Morro Bay, California, but they're both on the coast. They're both expensive areas and they're both full of really good contractors who have been around a long time. Some of these guys own their homes for a long time. Some of them inherited homes from their parents. Some of them inherited businesses from their parents. And so what they had to charge to run a profitable business. was way different than Luke Miller, the 25-year-old, or even the 30-year-old who was starting a family and whose rent was two or three times what their mortgage was and whose insurance was more because I was young and whose this was more. So my overhead for you young guys and for you older guys, when you see young guys charging more and talking about how hard it is, understand it's not just bullshit. These guys, their cost of living is more than yours. If you own a home or you've bought a home in 1970 for $75,000 on the coast of California that now costs somebody $500,000 and rents are triple what your mortgage is or whatever. It's like you have to understand that both the cost of life and the cost of business is more for a young contractor. So for both of them, they should both know their numbers. You're right. And what one needs to charge is different from what the other one is. And it's as simple as that. Again, you're in charge of that reality and you're in charge of your profitability. Do you want 50% gross profit? Do you want 10? Do you want 100? Do you want 70? It's like, figure it out and go for it.

I was born in the Midwest myself. So one of the big differences is most people will live in a 1,500 to 2,000 square foot house would be on the larger side. And most people won't have any toys. In the Midwest, most people have toys. They have a boat. They might have a jet ski or two, and they might have a snowmobile or two. And they might have this, and they might have that, and they might take longer vacations. Most people in California will... have a pair of tennis shoes and a basketball, you know, so we less, you know, or a surfboard, right? It's surfboard, you know, snowboard, different things. And it's not like there's not a lot of toys and a lot of money, but the average working class person is just going to, their lifestyle is less. And so it's like, I always said, you know, for the, I tried San Jose Bay area and I was like, for the cost of living and being so far away from the ocean, not that you're that far away, but. You're not going to go to the ocean. I'd rather live in Arizona. I mean, I'm in the desert anyways. I know if I move to Tucson, my expenses are going to be a lot lower. I can get a dirt bike. I can get this. I can get that. You know, and that's kind of the way I looked at that. So that's why for me coming from the Midwest and from New York, I wanted to live on the ocean. I was willing to live on the ocean in a small apartment and a surfboard because that's really what I treasured for those years. Right.

Yeah, it's true. It's crazy.

Well, first of all, listen to the Tile Money Podcast. There you go. Second of all, if you're growing a business, join the National Tile Contractors Association and join it with intention. Pursue after you join. And there's no easy buttons in this life, right, Brad? You can hire Brad to coach your business. You can listen to all the podcasts you want. They're not going to change your business unless you want that to change. So if you listen to this podcast, it's not necessarily going to change your business. But if you heard one or two things that you can apply to your business, do that. So when I say join the NTCA, don't just join it and think your business is going to improve because it won't. Apply and dig for the treasure. And the treasure is the people. The treasurer is always the people, right? No matter what we're talking about. Because inside the NTCA, you join them, you're going to have access to some of the best and biggest and smartest tile installers, tile contractors in the United States. You show up to one of their events, you go to one of their board meetings as a member, and these men and women will take notice of you. They will shake your hand. They will get to know you and you can ask them anything you want. They'll have a beer with you afterwards. They'll do this and that and you will get to know them and develop lifelong friendships in a lot of cases. And I've seen it with my own two eyes. I never joined the NTCA as a young contractor and I wish I would have. But I also probably wasn't in a position to fly out to a trade show and all this and that. But if I knew what I, if I had heard somebody tell me this and I was struggling and somebody told me, $500 gets you an NTCA membership, or is it $600? I don't know. They turn around and give you $2,000 in product vouchers. You could literally buy $2,000 worth of Thinset. So you just made $1,500, $1,400 that you can turn around and sell your client. So if you just did it for that reason alone, where else, Brad, do you know that you will get a five-to-one guaranteed return on your investment?

If I was installing showers today, I mean, that's one thing you could do. Just join the association. They're going to turn around and give you $2,000 in materials that you are going to use if you're a tile guy, I would assume. And you can sell them to your clients as per shower or whatever. But then you could take it further and show up to one of these events. Make it your goal. Save up all year if it's going to take you all year to save up. make a vacation out of it. That's a tax write-off. We should all be looking and wanting tax write-offs. So first of all, the 500 is a tax write-off. The trip to Orlando to go to coverings next year is a write-off. If you're a family man, they can go to Disneyland. You can make a five-day event. There you go. And then go do your business. Go to the NTCA meeting, introduce yourself, and make some friends because why wouldn't you surround yourself? in a room full of successful tile contractors if that's what you want to become. And so that's why I say join the NTCA for all those reasons. If you're going to be on social media, be productive with it. If you're going to be in the Facebook groups, why are you there? Either to ask a question or to answer a question. And if you're in the Tile Money Facebook group, it should be a business question. And go in there with that intention and then you'll start to improve and just make 1% improvement every day. That's all it is. Just make a little bit of improvement.

So for Tile Money, TileMoney. com is our website, TileMoney. com. TileNation, it's TheTileNation. com, TheTileNation. com. Same for Instagram. It's the same. It's like V period, Tile period, Nation, and just Tile Money, at Tile Money. We're on TikTok. We're on Facebook. We're on YouTube. And the podcast is heard on Spotify as well as about more than a dozen other podcast listening apps. Just search Tile Money wherever you are. You should be able to find us.

So it's my second go on this book here within probably 60 days. And it's called The 10 Distinctions Between Millionaires and the Middle Class. And it's written by Keith Cameron Smith. It's a small book. It's a short book,10 short chapters. And it's more of a mindset book than anything. I mean, if that word millionaire bothers you, it's just the 10 distinctions between success and unsuccessful is you could replace it. But millionaires in the middle class, like I said, it's mindset. It's 10 little mindset tips. And well, I'll read like... a couple chapters here of the titles here just to give a little bit more. But it's really showing me that anybody can pursue wealth or building a business or whatever. It's just putting into practice what others before you have done. And it's just little tiny things. Like distinction number nine, millionaires talk about ideas, the middle class talk about things and other people. And so now that... Once you read that chapter, now that I have that knowledge, every time I start talking about things or other people, wait a minute, that's not how millionaires think. Why don't I talk about an idea instead? You know, it's just something simple like that. But it's really amazing how it really works and really starts to change your thinking process.

Oh, I always, I always finished with a stay profitable tile friends.