EP11: To Charge Or Not To Charge For Estimates?

You always say my name. I just wanted to say my name for one time, you know? Like, hey, what's up, Brad? I'm so pumped to be recording tonight. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Keep going. Keep

Mr. Eric? I love this topic. I love this topic. It's so good. I don't know if it's in my niche right now where I'm at. Like I've been charging for, here's the difference. Are we charging for estimates or consultations? Are you giving estimates in person or over the phone? Like this is a pretty deep topic, but. Like I will give I'll give a free estimate over the phone, but like to come to your house to like help with the design element estimates like that's what the customers kind of think. I've always I've charged for that for 15, almost almost 20 years.

Because that's what people really think. They're like, I'm going to call the contractor. I'm going to get them to come out and I'm going to get them to look through my place and crawl through the attic or crawl into the basement or measure the bathroom or measure the backyard. Give me some ideas and then give me what they think it's going to cost. So that is really what people think ultimately.

Yeah. I mean, I had a contractor that I helped. I mean, one of my peers, it's a contractor. He'll come to me with some estimates and stuff like that. And I'll help him through some stuff. He literally thought it was such a big project. He literally thought, he was going to buy a house for himself. He had just gone through a tumultuous situation and divorce and separation, all that. And he literally thought this job, it was going to buy him a house and it's going to save where he's at in his life. And so he thought of it that way. So he was like, he ran out there for free. He drove over two hours away. And he drove to my place an hour from him. And then we spent an hour and a half. We worked on numbers. And then he went back and pitched it. I mean, contractors can be desperate sometimes. And so a desperate spot is not a good place to be. We hope that you can live in a spot of non-desperation to give these conversations and talks to your clients. But that is what happens, the carrot. The carrot to him was, I'm going to buy a house and this is going to reset my life.

A hundred percent. I agree. Yeah. So I think I've been desperate before. I could sense that they sense it. You know, I've been like, oh, I got to get this project. It's going into the winter. I got five guys. I got to keep them busy. I really want this job. And they know it. Yeah. They'll take advantage of even a heartbeat. Yeah.

So, I mean, so here, I guess we're talking about, so the carrot and the client. advantage, right?

They want to know why.

Yeah, that's the most important thing I want people to realize, because that's always weighed really, really heavy on me. Like if a guy goes out to five, six, seven, eight jobs and spends 25,30 hours, where do you think this expense is going to go? It's going to be on the people who. that are being kind and generous and like, hey, yeah, let's get this done. Those people are being taxed for him running around. The brilliant thing is, if you learn how to communicate well with people and you start to charge for your time, then no longer are these really great customers going to be taxed for your shitty customers.

Yeah, go do something with your family. Go do something for yourself. Go golfing. Trim on a bonsai tree or something. Do something besides chase around projects that you're not going to get. And listen, I want to talk about, we realize this. So if you're listening to this for the first time, you never heard us talk before, you're going to realize very quickly that we charge for our time. We charge for, I personally give free estimates, but over the phone. But if I'm going to come to someone's place and I'm going to start to put stuff on paper and start to itemize things and allocate numbers to certain scopes of work, you know, certain pieces of the scope of work to the puzzle, you know, I'm going to get paid for that, that work. And so if you're listening to us for the first time, we're huge fans of this. We teach how to do it and how to communicate with the clients so it doesn't come off. poorly. And I want to dive into this a little bit. So, you know, you can have a little taste, a little flavor of how it works.

Yeah. Value. Value is the big thing. You're providing value. Yeah.

That doesn't include your drive time there, your drive time home, your mental workup to get there. You know, the value is in the service, right? So you're discussing logistics, how long it's going to take, what they can expect, you know, like how contractors are going to be coming in and out of their home. Are they going to come to the side door? Are they going to come into the garage? Are they going to come into the front door? Are there steps? Are there dogs? You know, are there animals that we need to consider that are going to want to leave? And like, there's so much involved there. It's such a valuable service and people, clients, they don't know any better. They might make, have some assumptions, but if you can communicate to the client in a way that you help them understand that the value that you can provide and that the actual service that they're going to get and the valuable information they're going to have at their hand, the resources are going to be in their hands. Whether you provide the service or the next guy or the next guy or the next gal does the work, they're going to have that valuable information for it. And so if you can explain that over the phone in a nice, easy conversation, clients are more than happy. I would say 97% of the time, my clients are more than happy to pay me for a consultation, whether they're going to hire me to do the job or not. They just want to know what it looks like. how it's going to happen.

You know what I'm saying? Maybe they're just collecting information. They're just, then they're not ready to buy. And wouldn't you rather spend your time doing something else? I mean, you could probably have that conversation over the phone that, Hey, this is. Brad, this is a $50,000 conversation. And if they're like, whoa, oh, geez. Well, like, okay. Right? If you've had that conversation over the phone, then you're not wasting your time driving out there. Even if you're getting the $250,000, I'd rather not. I'd rather have that conversation ahead of time and do some other productive stuff working on your business or spending time with your family or doing something that you love as a hobby, like instead of wasting all that energy.

Yeah. Well, it's emotionally, it could start to wear on you. You know, imagine if you go out to three visits on a Saturday when you should be out, you know, in a tournament doing something you love. But you're out providing a service for people and you're running around hoping to get a project and you got turned down like by three different stops. It's like that could be a little punch in the nuts morale killer right there.

One thing I want to transition to is if you're communicating with someone on the phone, I know a lot of contractors are like, how do you tell someone you're charging for estimates? If I told this to someone, they'd be like, you're charging me for my estimate? How do you have that conversation with the people? I mean, there's definitely a way to do that. So there's really a nice little art to the way you communicate with the people on the phone and say, hey, we charge to come out to your place. I can share a number with you what it might look like to do a project you're communicating with about. But if you would like me to come out and put boots on the ground at your place and kind of really walk you through what this looks like, we do have a fee for that. Would you like to talk about that? I mean, there's a nice way to be able to say that to get the people to agree to it.

You charge $200 to give me an estimate?

Do people really talk like that?

You came across as a dickhead to me just like probably earlier today, if I think about it.

Yeah. No, listen, this is a serious topic, man. Oh, I just lost some paperwork. What'd you do?

No, I lost some paperwork here in my recording studio.

Well, I mean, you've got to get versed to talking to people over the phone and just asking about what they're looking for. But I mean, people get into a groove of like, you know, they might just get on the phone and like, Hey, I heard you want a pond. Yeah, I'm looking to get a pond. Okay, cool. I'd love to come out and see you and then check out your property and walk it and give you an estimate. Is that cool? When's good for you? They're already thinking in that regard because they're already programmed to think that that's the way it's supposed to go. So you have to break that paradigm and make a shift and be like, okay, let me just have a conversation with these people over the phone. Whether it's a bathroom or a kitchen or a pond, it's to be like, hey, tell me about what you want to do. And you have this conversation, right? And then if you've done this long enough, unless you started yesterday, if you've done this long enough, if you've done bathrooms and kitchens and ponds, you've done a handful of them, you might be able to share some numbers of what your clients have invested in similar projects. And if you're able to have that conversation with a person over the phone, and then they agree to like, hey, yeah, share that number with me. suddenly we're talking about money over the phone because you have an idea of what they want. So it's a paradigm shift is what's really, really key to this. And so lucky for me, I don't know how this landed in my lap, but like I've been charging for my time for like over 15 years, probably close to 18 years. And so, you know, it was 65 bucks for a long, long, long, long time. But it was just like a... Kind of like just make sure they're ready for me to be there. Because I used to go to people's homes and I'd show up and they wouldn't even be there. How many times has that happened? They're like, I'll give you a free estimate. I'll come out. I'll meet you. I'll be there at three o 'clock on Tuesday. You put it in your calendar. You show up at three o 'clock on Tuesday. You're knocking on the door. No car in the driveway. No one shows up. You wait for five minutes. You call them. They're like, oh, oh, dude, you're there. Oh, I totally forgot. Like that's unacceptable. So when that happens enough. You have to figure out a way to break that. And it's the paradigm shift of having a conversation with them saying, hey, I'd love to come out to your place and walk you through this and do the design. Before we schedule the appointment, I wanted to let you know I have a small fee for us to come out there and do the measurement and do the design work for you. I just want to make sure you're cool with that before we schedule. And wait for them to respond. And if they're like, oh, well, if they get all pissy, then you're like, well, maybe this is not my client. But if they're like, yeah, Brad, that's cool. Like, yeah, that's fine. Now there's a little bit of skin in the game. You can expect that they're actually going to be there. And you're going to say like, Brad, if we come to agreement on number, I won't even charge you the $65 fee or the $500 or $250 or whatever you're going to charge. We can just wave that all together when I'm at your place. And if we sign the paperwork and get you on the calendar. that design fee goes away and we'll just get the retainer for the project. How's that sound? It's a simple conversation like that. And then, you know, they're going to be there. They're going to respect your time and they're going to take you seriously instead of just like treat you like a piece of shit. Like, okay, well, this guy's going to, this contractor's coming out and to tell me how much it's going to cost.

Dude, this is even worse. Like you have to go into people's house and they're not going to be there. So like, ah, we're just, I'll just call them and leave a message or whatever. Like for me, like this is the real kick in the nuts is like, I just have to walk into their backyard. So I'd show up, no one would be there. It'd be like knocking on the door. No one would be there. I'd be upset. I'd call them. Dude, this is before. cell phones. I'm old, bro. Like I'd be beating on the door and I couldn't even call him. Tell me how ridiculous this is. Right. But then, then all of a sudden you're knocking on the door, you call me like, Hey, from the pond, I'm here to look at your yard and meet you to talk about your water feature. Like, Oh dude, I got tied up at work. I'm super busy. Just go into the backyard. I want it in the back corner on the left-hand side. Like, you know, have a look and then like, call me later and tell me what you think. No, like, no, this is not happening. This is not how this works. You just totally disrespected my time. This is not cool. You know, like that's a real pisser, at least for you. Like you got to get in their house.

straight to the fridge. I go straight to the fridge. See if they have any beer. Get some get something to eat. No. You don't show up. I'm drinking your beer and eating your food.

Yeah. I mean, my, My only kicker to that is like, if you start too cheap, people might not take the value seriously enough. You know, like 50 bucks is like, you know, people spend that in two days at Starbucks. You know, it's like, so for you like, hey, for 50 bucks, I'll come out and measure. Like, there is a point, like, we want you to feel comfortable with whatever number you feel saying, right? But 150 to 250, $75, like these numbers are pretty normal. for the contractors and students that are charging. It's very, very normal. Like 20 years ago, I was charging 65, you know, like, so for $50 today, it's not, it's not that much. So at some point there's a level, like people will take you serious. And here's an interesting point, Brad. Imagine if you're talking to someone and you're not really feeling it, you're like, you don't know if they're serious or not. You're like, I don't, I don't know if I get this guy. I like what they're saying. But I think this guy might be full of shit. If you go like, hey, Brad, you know, I'd love to get out to your place. I'd love to schedule an appointment. But before we do, I just want to make sure you're cool with the fact that if I come out there and we decide not to move forward with a project, you know, I do have this measuring fee. Is that you think that's fair? Get them to talk about it and then tell them it's 200 bucks. And then if they're like, OK, that's cool. Now you have this sense, you have this feeling like. Okay, this person might be kind of serious. If the person's like, oh,200 bucks, I don't know. Like, bro, we were talking about a $50,000 kitchen remodel. Like 200 bucks to kind of sit down with you and your wife and figure out the countertops and the tile and the selection and the logistics of where you're going to eat for the next four weeks while we tear your house apart. You know, like there's this perspective here. And if suddenly they don't want to pay the 200. You really have a confirmation of the fact that they are full of shit and they're just kind of like trying to throw numbers around. So I think that's an important factor to consider here.

Right. Listen, Brad, I don't know if you remember what one of the people that were coaching, I remember I was talking to her and I was kind of nervous. Like I was trying to pressure her to charge for her time to go to people's home to do the design work. And she was just paralyzed by it, paralyzed by it. And like, I was trying to figure her out still. And during the coaching call, I was talking to her. I was like, well, okay, how bad do you need this next job? Like the next phone call you take, how bad do you need it? Are you not going to pay your mortgage? Are you not going to have enough money to pay for dinner on the table? Or, you know, do you have a little bit of work on the table, right? And she tells me she's booked for six months. And I'm like, what the? Quit being paralyzed by it. Like, throw a couple away. Like, are you only getting one phone call a week or something? And she's like, no, I get a lot of phone calls. I'm fielding a couple of phone calls every day. I'm like, throw a couple away. You're booked for six months. What's the worst thing that can happen, right? Just tell the person next time, just as it comes out of your mouth, just say, it's $250 for me to come and walk your property and help sit down and discuss how we can change the life of you and your family in this kitchen. Just say that to them. And all this came out in the coaching call and she was terrified. And now she's charging $1,500, $2,000. In the same breath, and she's booked out for eight months. It's like, so there's a really important factor here. If you need work next week, let's work on some baby steps. If you have a couple of months worth of work on the board, throw a couple away and tell them $250. Tell them $500. Like, grab yourself by the balls. Well, this was a woman that we were coaching, so she didn't have any balls. But, you know, you get the point. You know, you get the point. Great,

Half of your listening offense.

Dude, I'm the one in California. You're in Indiana. I probably offended half of my audience. I didn't offend any of your audience.

Funny story is today I took a call from a client. They had called and left a message yesterday. I was busy like crazy. I got late. I didn't call them back. yesterday. I know a piece of shit. Sorry. They called back today. I picked up the phone and I was like, Rich, what's happening? I'm super sorry. I wasn't able to catch your call tomorrow. Thank you so much for your patience. What's happening? This is a guy that went and did a consultation with for a remodel project on a pond. 250 bucks. I charged him to go to his place. And here it is. It's been a while. It's been probably six or eight weeks since we did the whole thing. He's calling me back. He's like, Hey, I want to move forward on this, on this thing. And I was like, okay, well, what did you decide? And like, I'm in the field, like I'm running a tractor and I'm managing 10 guys and I'm like trying to get things going. I'm like, I don't have my notes. I was not even able to pull up where we were at. I have a pretty good understanding of where we were. And so we talked to money for a little bit. And I said, you know, this is probably what we're talking for what you're describing. I don't have my notes in front of me. And is that what you're thinking? And he's like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. And I was like, well, and your wife's cool with that? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, well, if we come out again, he's like, well, is that going to be another 250 bucks for you to come out again? And I was like, no, no, no, no, it's not going to be another 250 bucks because the next time I come out, you know, I'll bring paperwork to get on the calendar, you know, we'll get a commitment. And so, I mean, if you're ready, then that's what's going to happen next. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. And, but he was very much like, and so that, but that 250 hours spent with you is going to. you know, get applied to the project. Right. And I was like, absolutely. You know, for me, I'm not like it's 30 days and it's over. Like this was a while ago. Right. So for me, I'm like, kind of, I like let that slide back and forth. Right. Especially if I like the customer. So it was very much like, Hey, you're not going to charge me two 50 again to come out next time. I'm like, no, I'm going to ask for a thousand and that's going to secure your construction date. And I will, I will apply that two 50. that you've already spent with me to the job. And it was very much a point of conversation. So I think clients appreciate that. And they have skin in the game. You could feel it in him. You could feel the pressure on him. It's like, hey, I want to move forward. I'm not going to pay you more. I'm going to pay you what we talked about. And I want that money credited to the job. And I was like, cool, let's do it.

For sure.

Sometimes I'll do that on a referral. I'll be like, hey, since you're good friends with my buddy, I'll come out and do some design work with you. I really want to get the project. And ultimately, my goal, Brad, is to, I'm going to bring some paperwork. And if we can come up with an agreement on a number, I'll drop the paperwork and I'll just get a retainer and put you on the calendar. But if you don't move forward with it and you want to think about it, you got to talk to your spouse. I totally get it. But my fee is normally $250. But since your buddy's with so-and-so, I mean, if you need a little bit more time, I'm only going to charge you $150. Is that fair? There's that conversation. It's an uncomfortable one, but you got to get comfortable having those uncomfortable conversations. And so sometimes they're like, yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah, come out. They still have a little skin in the game. I don't want you to go for free just because you know my buddy. I'm not going to come for free. You're still going to have a little skin in the game, but I'm going to make you feel a little bit special. But I'm also going to let you know I want the job and I'm going to bring paperwork so we can sign and I can get the retainer for the job. And so that conversation is very important. It's part of the commitment pillar of the profit sales system. So that's part of the whole process. Learning how to talk to those people and having that conversation is paramount. It

As long as it's not your fault, but sometimes you get out to the place and then, you know, the other decision maker or the spouse, the influencer might show up, the next door neighbor, whoever's influencing the project, they might show up and all of a sudden you're dreaming and you're like, Hey, I want to put some, you know. I want this touchscreen mirror and then it makes the lights go up and I want the bidet and like, and I want the heated seats and all of a sudden, like if they start to push the price up, then they're still going to pay. Like Brad said, it's your prerogative and we're going to let you like move around, but we're not going to let you be a bitch. Like Brad's like, Oh, it's your business. Like we're, I don't want you to like, we want you to stand up for yourselves. That's what this podcast is about. The hammer and grind is about. empowering contractors to put more profit in the P &L. And part of that is to not waste your time at people's homes, giving free estimates and letting them run you ragged. Ask for to be paid for your time, to put some skin in the game, to make the project more likely to happen so you have more time to work on your business and your family and all that stuff. It's all like, this is all critical mass that we're talking about.

I mean, the guy had no context. That's not enough to have context. I've got a better story. Can I tell you my story, please? I told a client one time to come out to the place to do an orientation consultation for a remodel, told them 250 bucks, I get out to their place and we like, I show up. The husband meets me out the street. He knew what time I'd be there. He was waiting for me. The garage door's open. I told him I'd be there at a certain time. I showed up on time and he expected it. And I was like, garage door, I walk up. He invites me in. He's got a beer in his hand, right? It's after hours. It's like five o 'clock, five o 'clock. And I'm doing the thing. Walk in there. I go through the whole caboodle with him. I could really realize he was military. As soon as I walked up, I'm like, this is a military guy. This is like long-term military. So we go through the thing. And so somehow we start talking about it. I figure out he's a Marine. He's a Marine for 25 years. We go through the whole thing. I give him a consultation. This was not for like a big remodel. It was mainly like to help him understand orientation. He bought the house, has the pond, doesn't know what to do. Like, how can I make it better? I spend my time with him. And so we go through the whole thing. And like halfway through, he's like, can I get you a beer? And I was like, hey, if you're getting another beer, I'll drink a beer with you. And by this time, he'd already known he was a Marine, right? And I'm like, if a Marine offers me a beer, I'm not going to turn it down. He's like, okay. He gives me a beer. We're drinking. And this is when it comes to your prerogative, my prerogative. So when it came down to it, I asked him some questions about his experience in the military and so forth. He's 25 years. And at the end of the conversation, I was like, hey, do you need anything else for me? He's like, no. I'm like, okay, I want to get home to my family. He's like, okay, cool. He's like, let me get you some money. And I said, hey, I don't want your money. This beer was like plenty for me to spend my time with you. I really appreciate your service. And like, this is the least I can do to tell you how to take care of your pond. And I really appreciate all you did for our country. I'm really proud of you. And the fact that I drank this beer with you is enough for me. That's enough. And he was like, get the fuck out of here. Are you serious? I'm like, I'm dead serious. I'm so just proud to be here right now with you. And he was like, all right. And I have this amazing relationship with that guy to this day. But it's in my heart. It's authentic. It's really how I felt. And I was like, I don't want your money, man. The $250 is not important to me. That was a really fun experience for me. And so it's your prerogative. You can make those choices. But here's the most important thing. He expected to pay me because I had the difficult conversation with him over the phone prior to me going to his house. And he was paying me. And then like that moment that I told him, you know, I'm just happy to drink a beer with a 25 year Marine veteran. And like that was a freaking big deal. And so you have the choice to do that. Don't be a bitch. Have that difficult conversation before you go out there. Get that person to have some skin in the game and everyone's going to win at the end.

Listen, listen. The reasons to charge are exponential. They go on and on and on and on. If you want to dive deeper on that stuff with us, we want you to reach out to us. You can hit us up on Facebook and Instagram. You can hit us up in the DMs. And we're really reachable. You can reach out and talk to us, and we're going to share our feedback with you. Isn't that right, Brad?

I'm an high personality. I'll talk to someone all night long. Jeez, come on. Get the hell out of here.

All right, I'm going to take us home unless you have anything else to say.

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