EP172: Hiring for Character: Dave MacDonald's Approach to Building a Strong Team

Thanks so much, Brad. Glad to be here.

Sure. Happy to do that, Brad. Man, I didn't drop out of high school, but I was pretty close. In Canada, we have five years of high school before you go to university, four years if you go to a college, a trade school. And, or that's the way it was back when I was a kid. It's way different than that now. But I had all but one of the credits necessary to go on to university. And so I didn't go to university. and I don't have the skills to be a tradesperson. And so I was kind of in Never Never Land. And I ended up going to the U.S. to university and met a young lady in college and fell in love and we got married. And quickly I was into the workforce in a sales job and bounced from job to job to job to job to job. I had probably in the first eight years that my wife and I were married, I had probably 12 jobs. And we had twin boys early on in that process. I was 24 years old when I had twin boys born to me. And 30 days after they were born, I got let go from my work. And I was out of work for six months. And I tell all of that to say I fell into helping other people get jobs because I was really good at getting jobs. I wasn't great at keeping jobs. And so, yeah, we started our family young. I found a little niche for myself. What we write on the walls here at the Better Together group is feeding families one shift at a time. So that's kind of what we do is we help people find people. That's kind of how we started. Awesome.

I hear you, brother. I hear you.

Both. Okay. That's a real easy hook to hang your hat on. And what I would say is finding good people is as hard. as the rest of the job. And so if you really apply yourself to it and you're always on the lookout for new business, you find new business. And if you're always on the lookout for good people, you'll find good people. But part of it is being able to look in places that are less conventional or perhaps dig a little deeper into somebody to hear their story and understand who they are. so that you can find out why they're a good person. Sometimes at the top, so let's just talk about like a skilled carpenter. Okay, perfect. You know, I use carpenters as an example a lot because my father-in-law was a carpenter before he was a truck driver, and he's taught me a couple of things about carpentry. But this is what I know. There's guys that can do rough carpentry. There's guys that can do finished carpentry and there's then guys that actually finish the job really well. And so even finished carpenters often don't have the personality traits. They may have the skills, but not the personality traits to get all the way down to the quarter round at the bottom. There's lots of guys who put a door on him. Lots of guys will put trim around a door. Lots of guys will get the trim done, but won't finish it all the way to the quarter round or just that last finishing touch that, you know, fills all the holes and makes everything just perfect. And you have to work through that process to really find the right person. And it just takes time. It takes time and attention to detail. And it's this, the problem is, is that most people that are doing the hiring. have one set of skills that they're great at, but they may not be great at developing people or walking through the questioning process with a candidate to find the gold that is in every person.

Yeah, it needs to be a systematic process that you work people through. And I think that people that are looking only at the skill set miss it completely. The problem is there's lots of guys that have experience, but don't have the life skills to show up every day. Don't have the character, excuse me, to show up every day. And I would rather take a person with character and good life skills and give them over time. the experience to gain the skills than to find somebody who's got 10 years of experience and I can turn them loose on a, on a job site immediately. I'd rather bring somebody along and develop them over time. And that's hard to do. And it takes time. And when the problem is, is typically when you're hiring, you're hiring because you have an immediate need. You've got. you got an extra project or somebody walked off and you have to fill a hole. And I was just actually talking with my daughter this morning who works in our family business with us. She's a Gen Z expert. And so she understands she is a Gen Z and she's, you know, does a lot of public speaking around the Gen Z hiring and retaining thing. But one thing that she accuses me of, and it's fairly true. She said, dad, you always look for the closest tool, not the right tool. And so, you know, this, this would make the hair stand up on the back of the neck of most of the people that are running the businesses that you support and care for. But like, it's nothing for me to take a, take a screwdriver and turn it around and use it as a hammer. And it's bad practice. And that would drive, that would drive most of your people crazy. but when they're looking to fill a job immediately, often they're grabbing the closest tool, not the best tool. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Yeah, that's not a fit.

Right. And it's those experiences over and over again that make people say there's not enough good people out there. But if you go back and think about your hiring process when you hired him, like you said, you knew that he was rough. But did you ask the questions that would? have shown that lack of care and concern for someone else's tools? Because it's your tool.

Right. And that's, that's so often where it falls apart is, um, and, and every job requires a different set of questions. So I, like, I wish I could come to you today with, you know, a list of 55 questions that you can ask and guarantee you're going to get the right thing. But every culture, every. scenario is going to require a different set of questions. What you really want to be focused on is conversation, getting to know the person and making sure that there's a fit for you personally with them and their character.

A hundred percent.

Yeah. And so that guy does have to have experience. And so like the reality is, Brad, there's two reasons why people use our services. It's because they got a, they've got a, an ad out for somebody with experience and they either have a thousand resumes or they have one resume. And both of those are big problems. Yeah. Because in the thousand resumes, they're buried and they don't have time to weed through it. And in the one resume, it's not the right person. And they've probably seen that guy's resume or gal's resume a hundred times before. And so, you know, there is a process you have to work through and a patience you have to bring. And you have to be willing to network around. And, you know, there's a statement about recruiting that's just like always be recruiting. Like always be building relationships with other trades people who you know and you can talk to and you can kind of see who they know who happens to be in the street today that's looking for work.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a great practice.

Sure. So I have kind of two scenarios the way I look at this. The first one is what I refer to as my WTF philosophy. And Brad, that WTF may stand for something different than what you're accustomed to hearing it. So just be patient with me. It all spells out of my life. Like these are just my life experiences, you know, born over time. But our WTF philosophy is work hard, tell the truth. and finish the job. And so when I sit down with people and I tell them my WTF story, you know, I grew up on a hobby farm as a kid. My dad was a school teacher, but we had, you know,25 head of cattle and 100 chicken and a hay field we had to take care of. And like my dad was just always working. He was a hard worker. And when my wife and I got engaged, my... Grandmother said to my then fiance, why would you marry such a lazy, lazy young man? And my whole life, I've been trying to overcome that reputation. My grandma's been promoted to glory a long time ago. But I'm still trying to outwork that mentality that, you know, I was trying to overcome as a teenager. And then. So work hard is just super important to me. Those are the work hard, something that I tried to instill in my kids and became a natural part of our business. The T stands for tell the truth. I believe there's two types of people in the world. There's truth tellers and there's liars. That's all there is. And so when I was in my early 20s and bouncing around from sales job to sales job, people used to, you know, encourage me to shade the truth or, you know, maybe expand on it a little bit or exaggerate things or maybe not be truthful. And I really struggled with that. And so in my late 20s, I had a day when I made a decision, I'm going to be a truth teller. And that's just super important to me. And so I know that I'm in better relationships with clients when I tell them the truth, always the truth, nothing but the truth. And then finishing the job, just finishing skills are hard to come by. And honestly, I'm not that guy. I don't have finishing skills. I've got starting skills. And so I try to hire around me a team of people that are good finishers. So that's kind of our, you know, that's our hiring philosophy. And we talk about that with a lot of different people and it clicks with people. that, you know, have come up through the trades or understand a hard work ethic. And they, you know, if and so you're going to ask questions to people about, you know, talk to me about times when, you know, you thought it was going to be an eight hour job and it took you 10 or 12. And how did you get through that? And how do you manage that? And you're just asking for those kinds of questions where people can give you examples of how they've been a hard worker in their life and just exemplified that. And the same for tell the truth and finish the job. Tell me a time when telling the truth cost you something, where you didn't get the project because you had to tell the truth. Or what's it mean to you to tell the truth? And when you're up against it, how do you manage that? And then just examples of how you're a finisher. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think I think the co-worker thing is a is a difficult thing in an interview. I'm more looking for them to share experiences where they've had to make the sacrifice themselves to tell the truth. So, because nobody wants to be a rat. And everyone knows the right answer to the boss around that is I'm going to rat them out. But like my experience is that like even with my own staff, I mean, I'm involved with my staff every day. We talk frequently. We have a small team. They start to build relationships with each other that are even because they work together so much, it's hard for them to break that bond even for the guy who signs the check. And so when you're having a pop with somebody every day or having a cigarette with somebody every day, you're pounding nails or... cutting lawns or whatever, you're riding in the crew truck together every day. It's going to be hard to get them to talk about the other person.

Yeah. For me, finishing is attention to detail and, and closing the loop on the project. So it's not just enough to put the tools back in your box and to have everything completed and pack up and leave. It's the communication at the end so that the person you're doing the project for knows it's complete. It's not done until everyone knows that it's done. Does that make sense to you? Yeah.

I'd agree with that. Whether it's EQ or character or just good protocols, the job's not done until everyone that was involved in the job knows that it's done.

Yeah. And so like, so I had a guy come and do some tree work for me at my house last week. And his commitment to me was that when they took the tree down, they would fill the divots in my lawn and they would take away all the brush and blow out the driveway so that there was no chips around. Okay. And it took him like he, he was there with his crew on one day and then he came back a second day and it took him. almost a whole second day to finish the project well. But man, did he do a great job. And then he came and sat down next to me and we had a pop and we talked about the fact that it was done. And he showed me what it was that he had completed. And so for me with my staff, what I look for is an email or a text message that's then when I've given them a task that they respond back to me with just a TCO. taken care of done. And I know that it's done, but in the, in, in a contractor situation, and if the homeowner's not there or whatever, I'd be like pictures, like show me, show me this, show me it's done. Um, I, you know, I joke with people all the time. It feels like I'm from Missouri, the show me state. Um, and I just, I just like, I want to know, but I, I, I need to see to know.

So I'd rather have that than the other. If you're going to be like, we want to have work cultures where people want to work. And so, you know, We have a saying in our house, if you can't laugh at yourself, the whole world stinks. It's something we started trying to teach our kids when they were three and four years old. And you got to be lighthearted about some things. And you got to be able to joke and cajole and laugh. And, you know, gosh, life is so serious.

Yeah, absolutely. When they see the camaraderie that you have and they assume as a result of the camaraderie that you're related because you're just, you know, getting along so well, you know, that's great. That's a good sign.

Sure. I think there's two different questions in what you just asked. I just want to make sure I get to really where you wanted to go. It's like, how do we build a culture that is employee friendly or how do we build a culture where that we want represented in our business?

Yeah. So I would say there's two S's to that. The first one is showing up for your employees. If you just show up, like just don't be distant, be engaged. Don't, you know, like servant leadership, really like it's pretty straightforward. Don't ask people to go to places that you wouldn't go. Don't ask people to do things that you wouldn't do unless you're not capable. But like, don't ask them, don't have things that are below you, but you want them to do them. Right. So just show up. And then the second S to me would be, well, maybe it's GS. It would just be like, give a shit. Like, like actually care about the people. If they don't feel like you care about them, then they're never going to care about you.

So in my staffing business, Revolution Staffing is a driver service. We hire truck drivers for transportation companies, companies that are hauling goods. And we talk about being driver centric. I sat at a Fortune 500 company this morning and was talking with them. They're considering bringing us on as a supplier. And I said to him, I said, look, I I want the business. Don't get me wrong. But please understand when it comes down to you or the drivers, I'm in the business for the drivers. Like I'm here. Our mission is to feed families one shift at a time. And one of the ways we're doing that is by putting drivers to work for you. But you're the byproduct. You're not the business. The business is the people. And we're going to take care of our people. It's just like what you said.

no. And in trucking, it happens a lot. And that's one of the reasons why people like to work for us is because they know we've got their back and they know their check cashes every week. And most guys that are truck drivers have had. an employer bounce a check on them and go bad. And I would imagine that's probably true in contracting as well.

I think you have to understand it takes time. You have to invest time. And the time is not digging through a mountain of resumes. That's not the solution. The solution is being in relationship with the guy that you're hiring. So when you're hiring them, go slow. Don't be desperate to hire. As you said, when good people come, hire them, and then you'll be in a lot better spot. So I think that if you invest time in understanding who you're working with and what their skill levels are, and you can set the stage and create clarity for them coming in as to what your expectations of them are, and they can be clear about what their expectations of you are, that's going to set the stage for a much better experience for everybody. But unfortunately, it's just a matter of And there's like, like the honest to goodness truth is most of the guys who are running businesses, like what we're talking about, don't have a lot of time. They're already, as my grandfather used to say, trying to put 50 pounds of shit in a 40 pound bag every day. And the problem with that is when you're doing that, you end up getting some on your feet, right? And it gets a little bit messy. But we really need to slow down the time around interviewing people and getting to know them. And kind of what that allows you to do is it allows you to take some people that you would reject and understand their motivations a little bit better and understand the times. Because like most of us have bumped our nose up against the glass a couple of times in life. Most of us have stubbed our toe on a coffee table or two or three times in our careers. And so you want to hear those stories about how things went badly and how they've recovered and not take everyone that's had a bad experience and cut them out. Right. So I think that, I think that that's, that's, that's the value of time is time allows you to get context on the person and on the relationship. and really get a better understanding for what you're getting yourself into.

If they have to have the job tomorrow, that's a problem.

And it's an indicator of a future problem that you're going to inherit. So like you might help them solve their problem today, but whatever caused that problem, that's, you're going to find that out again. That's going to reoccur. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great question. I love the way you've worded that. Hiring is what McDonald's does. Bodies. Just put bodies in. Recruiting is sourcing candidates, vetting candidates, and creating an onboarding process where they get brought on board and trained and up to speed in a methodical. thought through way.

That's, that's like, watch your watch. Just count the days till that thing's going to blow up.

Well, and it's, and it's more than just those business buzzwords. You know, like a lot of a lot of your audience is going to feel like like that's just hocus pocus.

Yeah. So I think that all of those things are super important for companies to have and for business owners to really buy into. Obviously, I'm talking about mine through the whole context of the conversation, but it needs to be super representative of who they are. It needs to be really personal to them. And then as they give away those learnings that they've had through the course of their life, the employees are picking it up in a different way. When you share the stories based on your personal experience, one, they're getting a transparency into you that life hasn't always been necessarily perfect on every single day. And they're going to enjoy. knowing you as a person as opposed to just the business owner or manager. And I think you're going to get a lot better buy-in because they're getting to know you and you're expressing your desire to get to know them. And when I talk about time, that's what I'm talking about is getting to know them and then giving them some of yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I, I'm very, I have to be very intentional about the way I do that. I'm very transactional by nature. Um, I, You know, for years it's been, I walk into the office and I walk past people and I need to slow down and make time for them and consider them. I've got a good business friend who I was talking to just a couple of weeks ago on the phone and he was driving into the office and he was like, Hey Dave, I, I have to step off our call. I want to continue. but it's going to take me 15 minutes. Can I call you back in 15 minutes? I'm like, dude, you're walking into your office. Like I've been there. It's not that, it's not that far to your office. Like, just keep talking to me while you're walking in. He's like, no, man, no. When I walk in, I gotta, I gotta be on for my people. And so he stops and greets, you know, the people that he's walking past and engages them every day as he goes in and he's in relationship with them. And I, you know, that was a good reminder for me. Again, you got to invest time in your people.

Yeah. I'm not, I don't remember who coined the phrase, but management by walking around. Right. I haven't heard that one. Right. It's, it's, you know, you, you manage people by being in their presence management by walking around.

And so, but like that, that guy's a perfect example of it. Just kind of, you know, being, you know, it does come down to being in relationship with people in my office setting. My office is at the very back. I got no windows. I'm in this like cave at the back of the office. And I can, I can sit here on Zoom calls all day and forget I have any people out there. I got to be intentional to get up and get out and be with my people. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And so results driven that I, you know, all the things that I'm talking about, I'm not good at. Okay. These, these are, these are lessons learned. You know, I. My LinkedIn profile says I have an MBA from the school of hard knocks. Yeah. I'm, you know, this is what I've learned by doing things wrong. Mostly.

I think the most important question you didn't ask was where do I find the people?

And my answer to that would be. Typically, you find the people under rocks that you're not looking under.

Well, I think that, you know, in today's age, people are like, we'll put up an ad on Indeed and we'll see what we get. Or, you know, nobody's really advertising in trade publications anymore. But like there is all these different job boards or Facebook or. Whatever. And most of the great people that I've hired into my business, people that have stayed a long time, people that have been really good workers, I met somewhere and I built a relationship with them over years. And when they came to look for a job, they called me. So one guy just recently hired him. I met him. seven years ago at an industry event. And we built a little friendship and his time at his other company came to an end. And he called me and said, Dave, you're the first person I call. And I was like, well, Stano, I don't have a job for you today, but I'll find one for you tomorrow. And, you know, just exactly what you said. When you find eight players, you hire another guy that I like, really worked well with me, worked with me for 10 years. was a drummer at my church. There was just something about him in character. And I didn't know him super well. I knew his wife probably better than I knew him at the time. But I just, I could tell that there was something in his nature and who he was. He was a great employee for a long time. So they're typically lurking in places that you're not looking.

I would say almost no A players are sitting at home looking at Indeed.

Right. Right.

Yeah. And, and all you're doing is creating a. an environment where they want to be more, right? Like that's, you know, my job as an employer is to create an environment where they want to work and compensating them fairly. I, you know, I understand that I am probably middle to less than average on the pay scale for most of the people that work for me. We're not paying premiums to get these people. We're actually paying less. but we're compensating them fairly. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not messing them over. Right. But, um, we're compensating people fairly. We understand what the market pays. We're right in the market, but, um, I'm not bribing people out of jobs to come work with us. Right. Um, I want people who want to work here. and we're trying to create an environment where we live up to our name, where we're better together. I think I'm better when I add those people to my team.

And I'm hoping that they're better for being associated with us and doing what we do together.

Sure. BetterTogetherGroup. com. is our website. My name's Dave, Dave at better together group. com gets right to my desk.

Well, Gosh, I, um, I, I love, I really enjoy the author, Patrick Lencioni. Um, and, um, I will gobble up pretty much anything that's written by him. Um, I think, um, to our corporate clients, I recommend death by meeting. Um, but he does have another book. Uh, I think it's called the ultimate team player,

Yeah. And so that's a really good book. I also really like, um, traction by Gino Wickman. Um, because I'm not a finisher. Um, I need it. I need somebody around me who is. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm that visionary leader and I need, um, the integrator or what I like to call the executioner.

Brad, thanks so much for having me on. It's a great pleasure to do this. I love people and I love talking about people, finding the right people. So happy to be on your show. Thank you so much.