EP29: Contractor School Ain't Cool

I graduated from the school of hard knocks.

There ain't no contractor school, son.

Well, that's the problem. I'm going to date myself right now. I graduated in 86. I'm an old bastard. I know. But listen, back when I was in school, you could take automotive and wood shop and you could do these other kind of trades in school. God forbid some kid cuts their finger off in school, so we just got to get rid of all the trade schools. I mean, come on. What's going on? I mean, that's part of the decline of the fact that it's hard to get good. contractors in there. There's never been a better time in the history of the world to be a contractor right now.

It's truly staggering. I mean, because I'm old enough, I've been through a couple of different downs and recessions. And literally, we're a 12-year run right now. Right? I mean... usually every 10 years, there's a decline in the economy, right? We're at 12 years right now. Still money's being printed like crazy, whatever. If you're not crushing it in your contracting business right now, then you're really going to... You suck. I mean, you're really going to take a hit when the economy dips. And you better be prepared because the writing's on the wall.

Don't try and compare yourself to freaking Mel Gibson, bro. Come on.

It's like Braveheart shit right there. Well, you know, well, it's funny because you mentioned 2009,2008 when the dip was. I mean, I was in, we were just cranking in 2003. Like we were literally doing 100 ponds a year. It was like crazy. And we could barely keep up with it. And we were hiring and all this stuff. And that's kind of like the same we're at now, only this is more crazy than back. in 2003. It's more people are throwing money at you in a different way. But in 2008, when the crash happened, I somehow wrote it out because you cut me and I got pond water bleeding through my veins. I'm just not into ponds. But all the guys that were in the thick of it, because there was so much business, they didn't know how to handle it. They went back to work for other people. They shut their doors down. And for like three years,2008,9,10,11, like I kind of had the market to myself again. And then they all started to come back in 2012. Right. But I wrote it out. So, I mean, that's, it's crazy. That's what's going to happen again real soon. In the next couple of years, I don't know when it is. I'm not predicting it. I'm not Nostradamus, but I'm just telling you a 12-year market like this, it's bound to decline at some point. And I just want to kind of encourage contractors to kind of get their shit together. Because if they don't have their shit together right now, And they're just winging it and just counting money because the stuff's coming in. They're in for a rude awakening and a surprise soon.

I put a magnet on my truck.

Yeah. You know, it, it's crazy. This reminds me of a story. I followed Gary Vaynerchuk for a long time. And I remember hearing a story about when the 2008 thing hit. And he was crushing it, literally crushing it. If you know Gary V, that was his first book, Crush It. He was in Italy on a buying wine trip. And back in early 2008,2007, he would just go out there and just be like... throwing money at people and I'll take 10 cases of this. I'll take seven cases of this and take 20 cases of that. And like, that's how he was buying back then. And it was 2008 and he's in Italy on a buying trip and he got a tip like, Hey, we're in trouble. Something's going on. The economy's dipping. Just, you know, you need to be careful on your spending. And he was all of a sudden like, Oh, I'll take a case of this and a case of that. Like he, he, he got, he had the intuition as well. I mean, he's always famous for, but. He was still able to ride it out. But that's what happens. You go from buying 20,30,40 cases,100 cases at a time to like, I'll take a case of this and case of that because that's what happens when the dip hits.

So here's an interesting fact right now. The way our company is, I just paid off my truck, I don't know, probably six months ago, my personal truck. And it's got like $250,000 on it. It's got a bunch of miles. It's still a sexy beast. It's still pulls. It's still a good truck. And then... I was considering getting a new truck, but this is what I kind of evaluate. It's like, hey, I went through 2008. I went through some slow times before that and starting my business off. So I'm kind of aware of this stuff. So I literally have bought two used trucks to help increase my fleet, help scale my business, but without getting that $500,000, $700,000 a month payment per truck. But I just felt it was a nice move. It's a nice little pilot truck, smaller. you know, Ford Ranger to run my, run my teams out. So, you know, I'm, I'm being thoughtful about those things. I'd love to get, go out and get a brand new, you know, F350 Lariat for my truck, but this doesn't make sense. Like I'm, I'm too aware of, you know, the potential for, for slowing down.

I call it stay lean. I don't want to stay small, like grow and push, but stay lean. And that's basically what I did. I could have gone out and got a new truck. There's all kinds of rebates and like low percentages and all this stuff. And now, you know, it might be a good move, but staying lean is important because I don't want to, you know, a thousand dollar truck payment or two $1,000 truck payments for, you know,60 months or whatever. going into something that could be potential. But listen, Brad, this is not... I don't know how this got sidetracked into the End of the World podcast. That's not what this is about. What this is about is contracting, schooling, cool. And there's really no contracting school. You can't go to school to become a contractor because contracting is too diverse. You can take a business course, a construction business course, and kind of learn some things. If you want to get your contractor's license, you can go to... a contracting licensed school, they'll guarantee that you will get your contractor's license because they'll train you and teach you how to pass the test and get your license and that kind of stuff. But it's so diverse. It's so wide. It's really crazy. And it's unfortunate that in today's world, we're not teaching this kind of stuff. I mean, who's going to make the world spin? Who's going to build the roads? Who's going to build the houses? Who's going to provide electricity to this huge world? If we don't teach people how to do these crafts.

Valid point. Valid point. I'll give you that. It is important. But see, I think there's no contracting school like we're talking about, right? It's really a school of hard knocks. You get into the craft and it kind of goes back to school. When you're a junior or you're a freshman in school, they're just teaching you how to be on a computer and how to do this tech stuff. And you get out of school and you're in debt. You go to college, you learn how to be this tech person. And then you're all of a sudden 200 grand in debt trying to do this stuff. And they didn't teach you any real world. Like literally you could be a linesman and make 90 grand a year. And just like, just because you know the trade. Why aren't they teaching this in school? Like they've completely ignored that. And that's really disturbing to me.

It's not big enough. It's not. It's not even close. I agree with you.

I personally don't feel any traction. I mean, I'm curious where you're finding this. I'm not doubting you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just saying I personally haven't felt traction on this. I still feel like... I mean, it's so hard to get an apprentice. If you take on an apprentice, you literally have to teach them everything. You have to teach them to get work boots. You have to teach them to not have mustard on the front of their shirt. Literally, bro, you're going to come to work with mustard on your shirt like this? We're going to work. You're in shorts and have no boots on? You don't have a lunch? It's so basic. If I want an apprentice, I'm going to have to train them from the ground up. From nothing.

Well, I'm in California, bro. So they're not doing that yet over here.

That's pretty killer. I love that. That sounds awesome.

They probably don't do that anymore because a kid fell off a ladder. They're like, I can't do this anymore.

Well, that's interesting. I mean, but the generation that's coming out, they don't necessarily want to be in that industrial spot. They want their weekends off. They want a little bit of free time. They want paid time off. They might not get the special attention. wow, you really did a great job today. Like, dude, some of the kids that work for me today, they're not even the kids. They're like 29,30 years old. It's not a kid to me anymore. But like, literally you have to tell them how good a job they're doing every 10 minutes. Like, oh my God, you carried a piece of wood to me. Good job, Johnny. You know, and then they're like, they pulled a wheelbarrow over and you're like, oh my God, you're so good at that wheelbarrow. Like they need that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm... I'm just being real, bro. I'm not trying to, I'm not downplaying any of that. It's just like, that's the nature of what's happening now. So like, I don't think that all these kids doing this, they're still programmed a little bit different. And maybe it's a slow change back into the hardcore, you know, construction workers. When I came up in this, I didn't get no, good job, Johnny. I got like, what took you so long, you piece of shit? Hurry up. You know, no, we're not breaking for lunch for another hour. It was a lot tougher. So I think, I don't know, it's just a weird change.

How's he doing now? Is he doing good for you?

Is he still working for you?

Oh, he doesn't work for you anymore. No,

I mean, this is, this all stems into like, basically I want to, I want to go back to wood shop and to automotive and those kinds of things. It's like, When that happened 150 years ago when I was in school,

teachers were teaching you work ethic. They were teaching you to follow through. They were teaching you completion of projects. It's kind of a big deal. And so that's slowly declined. And so we don't get that as much anymore. And this is probably one of the biggest reasons why 96% of contracting businesses fail within the first decade. Because they're just not equipped. There is no like contractor school. Like they haven't been taught the work ethic. They didn't have, they haven't been, they've taught these little tiny things of all the different aspects of business, but not enough to be good at it.

I'm glad you mentioned that because here's the thing, though. So I wanted to be a professional baseball player when I was a young man, when I was a boy, right? And then...

know. But still, my desire was there. And I was okay with that. I was like, oh, I'm too short. I'm too slow. I can't hit the ball. I can catch shit on third base all day long, except the ones I can't die for because I'm only 5 '9 and a little bit. I'm not six foot, so I don't have to stretch. So I couldn't hit a curveball for anything. I just didn't have it. And so I was like, okay, this is not for me. I got to go find something else I'm good at. But so I still was taught perseverance and follow through and completion and these kind of things. I learned from my woodshop teacher and from automotive and those kinds of things. And I think that's kind of what's lacking a little bit today. And again, that's why contractors struggle so much. You have to be, you have to be, you have to want it bad. You have to be like, you have to want it bad enough. And you have to be almost in a spot where of desperation, where like winning is the only way out, you know? And that's how the contractors, that 4% that make it past the decade, that's how they pull it off.

That's cool. I do like that. And it's interesting that you say that because I went from, I want to be a baseball player when I grew up. And this makes me smile because I think about Derek Jeter. Like literally he was seven and he's like, he wasn't just like, I want to be a professional baseball player when I grow up. Derek Jeter was literally like, I'm going to be the shortstop. for the New York Yankees when I grow up. That's Derek Jeter. I don't know if you know that story, but it's pretty special.

So, I mean, that's amazing right there, right? So for me, I was like, hey, I'm going to be a professional baseball player. I don't care. The Blue Jays, the A's, the Reds, like, I don't care. I just want to be a professional baseball player. I wasn't that specific. And, you know, when I figured out I was too short. Too slow. Couldn't hit a curveball. I'm like, okay, well, I'll be a musician. So I was like a rock star. I was like, I'm going to grow my hair long. I'm going to put on some makeup and I'm going to put on some spandex. I'm showing my age right now, bro. And I'm going to be a rock star, right? And then it's funny because you said that. I didn't say I want to be a contractor when I grow up. It was a consequence of the way my life was going. I didn't end up in jail. I wasn't a felon. I wasn't an alcoholic. That wasn't happening. Life settled in. I had to go out on my own. I had to get my own place. I had a girlfriend. My girlfriend was like, hey, I don't really like you. You know, being out in Hollywood, you know, every Friday and Saturday night trying to get the show. The girls want you, you know, so I was like, oh, I got to get a job, you know. And so like that, that was the, that was just the natural cycle of life. And so suddenly my dad was a, he was a production guy for a big construction company. He got me a job and all of a sudden. I'm in construction, you know, and that's just how I fell into it. And I made pretty decent money.

for sure. And you know, it's cool. Like, you know, we're a landscape contractor. We're outdoors all the time. I am an outdoor guy. I like to hike. I like the ocean. I like the beach. You know, all that stuff. And it's interesting because the younger guys that come onto my team, the apprentices and things like that, often I'll be like, they've been here for a month. I'm like, hey, what's your favorite thing so far? Hey, what do you like doing the most? You know, what, you know, what resources do you need to become a better employee? Well, how can I help you? Like I ask these kinds of questions. And, and most of them are like, it's really cool that like we're, we're working by the beach one day and then we're working in the mountains and then we're out in the desert. And then, you know, it's, it's like, we're traveling, we're meeting new people. And so like, they get this really fun sense of like meeting new people and, and making people smile and, and fixing people's problems, providing these amazing solutions. And people are like, buying us lunch and stuff like that. It's like, it's pretty gratifying in that, in that respect. And, and you don't learn that in contractor school because you don't learn, like, there's a lot of psychology behind this. I want to, I want to talk right now, Brad, if we can just segue into like what, what you need to learn. If I was going to start a contracting school, which Brad, please don't say we're going to start that next because I don't have time. I don't want to do that shit right now. I don't want to start a school.

want to start a school yet. But like the curriculum. Like, I want to discuss like what could be part of the curriculum in the school and like a deep part of the curriculum. Not like, hey, you need to know numbers, you know, one plus one and some, you know, mark it up this, like a deep dive curriculum.

All right, I'll get it started then.

thing, you do need to know some math. You need to know your numbers. They don't even teach kids how to balance their checkbook, let alone learn how to estimate correctly and balance your checkbook and profit-first accounting for taxes and stuff like that. You're not going to learn that anywhere. You have to get your ass kicked in the business for a few years to go, how can I... I can't... Profit-first accounting and bidding, that part of the numbers should be a really deep dive part of the curriculum.

This is blowing my mind. I'm excited to get this started next week. Start this construction school we're talking about.

Yeah, let's do it. No, like really, it would be cool if you went like, hey, I want to start a construction business. I'm coming to school. And like, okay, like let's figure out your name. You know, that's important, right? And you said, hey, they don't even figure out they need to brand or market correctly till three years in. By that time, they're like Johnny Rotten's handyman construction services. Like, okay, dude, that name's not going to work. Let's change it. They're like, oh, I can't change it. I've been doing this for three years. Like, no, dude. Like, you should have went to construction school. You should have went to hammer and grind contracting school.

Let's talk about psychology. And that leads right into sales. You need to learn, you need to understand people. Dude, when I did a deep dive into sales and understood the psychology behind communicating with clients and stuff like that, my marriage actually got better. You know what I mean? That's how critical some of this stuff can be. Some of the nuances that you learn in business through the school of hard knocks, hammer and grind, construction, contracting school, RS.

You're still struggling with it.

One of the mindset things is like, I can't afford it. We can't afford it. You know, like I grew up pretty poor. Like I remember eating cans of mushroom soup every night for like a week. And like if I got a box of macaroni and cheese, it was a treat. You know what I mean? So like, hey, we can't afford it. So that gets set into your mind when you're a kid, all of a sudden, like, oh, I can't afford it. Like, hey, we need to buy this piece of machinery so we can be more efficient, so we can make more money, we can be profitable. I can't afford it. It's like, you have to be able to shelf that mindset thing and really be logical behind it. And to understand, like if you're trying to scale your business and you have that mindset, I can't afford it, that can really hold you back. So, I mean, I think mindset's great. I'm glad you brought that up. And who's going to teach that at contracting school? Like no one.

This podcast has been officially sponsored by the Hammer and Grind Contracting School, LLC. I'm just kidding. I'm just bullshitting. We're not, I'm just, this is, I'm just bullshitting.

I was just going to say that, man. HR is

You're a winner, man. You're a winner. What can I say? But that's a big deal.

Yeah. You're like, okay, sit down, Jeff. We'll talk about this later. You know what I mean? Listen, this is what's crazy about that. Like some of the things that I had to learn, if I would have known that I had to do some of the stuff that I do, I might not have got into business. I might not have gone as hard into construction as I thought. You know, like when you have a handful of employees or a dozen employees, suddenly like you're a father figure, you're a best friend, you're a shoulder to cry on, you're a bank. All of a sudden, you're lending them money, paying in advance. It's like, there's a lot of stuff going on there. You really have to understand the psychology of your employees. And if you're creating culture, which is... I mean, that would be... That's an entire curriculum part right there. Creating culture in your business.

Yeah, they haven't been exposed to it. And back to that, if I'd have known... I have to be a referee. I have to be umpire. I have to be a coach. I have to be a quarterback. You know, I have to be the runner. I have to be the water boy. Like you have to be, you have to do a lot of different things. You're like, I just wanted to be a quarterback. I just wanted to go around and, you know, build things and make people happy. But you have to, you know, you have to be offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator. You have to be, you have to understand all these positions. And some of the things we're talking about, like in my business right now, like I'm not doing my accounting. I'm not doing. a lot of these things. Like parts of my production, I'm not doing any longer because I've trained someone to be able to handle that and then hire a production manager. And like these things are my, we're working on constantly, right? But I had to kind of like, I have to have an understanding of leadership. Leadership is definitely a part of the curriculum. What is a leader? How do you lead? Like that's got to be definitely a part of it.

I mean, that goes back to psychology and culture and all this stuff. And you literally can't learn that unless you... You get into it. And dude, being a contractor is hard. And any contractor that's listening to the podcast right now, I mean, dude, bro, chick, girl, like this is, you're not alone. This is hard. And this is why, one of the reasons why Brad and I are so passionate about the hammer and grind movement, about the profit club, about, you know, the... the profit group, all these contracting groups that were like being involved. And that's why we're so passionate about it because we love what we do. We love working with our hands. We love helping people. And that's where we're not going to start a construction school. If you're like, don't, do not hit me up in the DM about starting the construction school. We have groups and coaching programs and stuff. We're not starting a school, Brad. We're not doing that.

but I'm passionate enough about it that, that I love that.

That's great. I've actually talked about some... I've talked with other coaches about doing that exact same thing. And I think it's a really cool idea. Dude, I can't tell you when I was a framer, back when I was cool, back when I was young, back when I had long hair, back when I was young.

bro. I was a skateboarder. Get the shit right. I thought you did BMX. No, I didn't do BMX. I was dog town, bro. I'm old. Skateboarding.

So sometimes you're dealing with someone and they've been in the business for a while. They've been in the trade for a while. They can't even really read a tape measure correctly. I'm like, are you kidding me? I'll literally punch you in the nuts right now. You can't read the tape measure?

And that's why you wanted to punch him in the nuts when he's standing on top of the ladder?

literally knocked him off the ladder.

Bro, you've definitely threatened me with my life 27 times.

Listen, man, this is an important topic to me. We've talked about a lot of different things. We've talked about the end of the world, the crash of the economy, how schools have let our children down and all this stuff. But the bottom line is contracting is hard.

Dude, contracting is fucking hard, man. I mean, you really need some help. I mean, I only really got things going because I asked for help. I asked for coaching. I asked for, you know, like I got to the top level and I asked for more help. You know, it's like some people don't figure that out where they don't have the perseverance. Like, I mean, I just want contractors to know they're not alone. And then... part of the support system that we've created is really an avenue to learn some of this stuff. We're not going to start a curriculum. We're not starting a school. We're not going to charge $160,000 a year to come and learn how to be a contractor who makes $120,000 a year. But we do offer a lot of support for this kind of stuff.

You were satisfied with the spot where you were at and it was like the lowest level you could live without people teasing you.

This is the genius part of it. Okay. Somehow, maybe it's idiot savant, you got lucky, but somehow you ended up with a beautiful, smart woman with an amazing job bringing in some bank. She's your sugar mama.

Bethany's your sugar mama. No, I mean, this is cool. I mean, but here's the thing. You know why? Because there was no, like, you're pretty smart, dude. I feel like you're pretty intuitive about some things. If there was a construction school, after the first year and a half, you're getting your ass kicked. You probably went, I am going to go to this school. I'm going to learn how to do this. I'm going to get my shit together. I'm going to go to this school. I'm going to pay $20,000 a year or $40,000 a year and get things together. Like, there was no such a thing.

So you're smart, but you're stupid.

That's why you're so smart at what not to do because you've done it wrong. And I was going to say that that first six years was all mindset stuff. All head trash. Like, well, I don't want to charge people too much. Oh, my wife makes enough money. I don't want to say it made you complacent, but it kind of did. Right? Well, it's going to say

Stepping outside of the comfort zone. Which you're terribly uncomfortable is more uncomfortable than, it's like the pain and pleasure principle right there. Exactly. It's more painful to step outside of the pain that I'm in because it, so that you don't do it. Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah, for sure.

true. And it's true. I'm glad you said that because when I had our retail businesses over a decade ago, probably 18 years ago, we hired a retail business coach and I was already doing construction. And he was trying to give us both advice. And everything he said just didn't line up. It didn't mesh. It didn't work really. He made some really cool improvements for us in our retail businesses, but it didn't translate over to construction. And so that's important that you said so. And I was going to tell you, I remember the first person I really mentored was probably 2009, around that time. And someone just really was like, I want you to help me. I'm coming out to California and I just want you to kind of show me the ropes. I want to start a construction business in Ponds. And I was like... cool, come on out. And I didn't, I didn't really, it didn't really hit me, you know, like, like it hits me now, you know, and, and over the years I've had that happen several times and it made me realize like, Hey, like I've really been through the school of hard knocks. I've been through enough. I've built a brand that I do have some stuff that I can share. I do have some stuff that I can teach and it's been fun along the way. And that's why, you know, the hammer and grind movement that we're involved in right now is so special to me.

Yeah, amen to that. Listen, I'm not going to go on a pitchy thing right now, but we have a free Facebook group. It's a contractor profit group. And we share a lot of these things in there. It's just kind of insightful things. And of course, we have our paid group, the Profit Club. That's not necessarily for everyone right away, but tiptoe into it, get into a group, whether you get into one of our groups, our free group, our paid group, or get into a different group, I don't care. Just reach out to people and get some help. It's really the fastest way to learn from other people's mistakes and become successful and not be part of the 96% that are taking Digger. And we want you in that 4%. We want you to win.

Yeah, I agree. That was a real fun thing to produce. So, well, that's it. I'm going to get us out of here. Thank you so much for spending time with us tonight on the podcast. We really hope you're realizing the content that we're putting out is because we want you to win. We want you to win more than you want yourself to win. That's really the mission behind what we're doing. So make the world a better place. Share the podcast with some other contractor people that you know. And let's get better at being better. So we'll catch you on the next time.