EP203: Building Women Leaders: Insights from Dr. Gretchen Gagel's Journey in Construction

Yeah, it's interesting because writing the book obviously involved a lot of reflection. I was told by my father I couldn't go to engineering school because girls didn't do that. And when I turned down Harvard to go to engineering school, he actually disowned me when I was 17. And, you know, it's funny because you can say, well, that's kind of a drag that that happened. But it really inspired in me that anybody can be anything. And somebody telling somebody they can or can't do something because they're a woman, they're black, they're whatever. Out of engineering school, I was hired by Ralston Peering as their first female operations manager. So there were 62 men and me in the country. I thought, well, somebody's got to do this first. And I rose quickly through that organization. I was running a plant with 800 employees by the time I was 27. I left to settle down in Denver, did my MBA in finance. And that's when I joined FMI. A lot of people will know FMI in your audience. They've been around for a long time doing strategy and M &A investment banking work. In fact, I had lunch with Hugh Rice, their former chairman, yesterday. And I started their owner services group. I really wanted to consult on the client side, General Motors, Intel, Marriott, to help them understand how to more effectively partner and buy their construction services. Kind of this low initial cost doesn't equal low, low initial price doesn't equal low total delivered cost. I was at FMI for 11 years. Left the industry for a bit, came back in as president of Continuum Advisory Group, doing that same advisement. And then I got really crazy and moved to Australia in 2018. So I now divide my time between Australia and America and starting to shift my focus a bit on how do I help more women be successful in the industry? Now that I've kind of my induction into the National Academy of Construction in 21 kind of said, I don't think I have anything left to prove to anybody anymore.

Yeah. Building Women Leaders, a blueprint for women thriving in construction. It's available for pre-order on Amazon. Hopefully it's coming out April 1st. And I was approached by Wiley. to write the book. I had actually decided with my coach, Edgar Schein, I wasn't going to write for a while. And Wiley knocked on my door about three months later and said, would you write a book about women leaders in construction? And it's really been a labor of love. 120,000 words. You've written a book. You know how hard words are to come out. It has 130 people in it. Olympians. I interviewed 50 industry leaders. But it's really a bit of a reference book about what great leadership looks like and explores the context of being a woman leader in construction.

One of them was really the importance of allyship. And that's a word we're starting to use more. I didn't realize when I joined FMI in 1994, Lou Bainbridge was my boss. And I actually interviewed him for the book. I said, Lou, I want to make sure I get this right because I'm putting it in my book. We had contractors that said, oh, you're not sending Gretchen out to do my strategic planning. I need a John or a David or... And Lou's response at the time was, well, you're going to need to go find another consulting firm because Gretchen's a part of our team. And I appreciated that at the time, but I don't think I really, really deeply appreciated it. Having come from manufacturing, Ralston, Perina, Coca-Cola, where, yes, I was the first female operations manager, and yes, did I go through some really challenging situations. The women and men that I interviewed, you know, Tom Riley, senior vice president with Turner, the role that allyship plays woman to woman, man to woman. And it's about respect and behavior. And yeah, I think that was one of the biggest takeaways, how important that is in our industry.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I started out the first chapter talks about unconscious bias and dominant culture. And it's really the only chapter that's that's just kind of focused on directly on the female experience. When I was writing about unconscious bias this year, I was, I got, I was flying, I'm on the Associated General Contractors National Diversity and Inclusion Committee. And I was flying to the committee meeting in Washington, DC. And I got in a shared ride car and the, and the guy, the driver, young, youngish man, maybe 30 said, Oh, are you having a busy week? And I said, yeah, Kansas City, Chicago, DC, New York, you know, pretty typical week. And he looked at me and he said, Oh, are you a flight attendant? I was in a suit. Okay. And I said, no, I'm a business executive. And I said, do you think you would have asked a man that? And he said, you know, I probably wouldn't have, or I would have asked him if he was a pilot, right? But until you've walked in someone else's shoes, you really don't understand that different people are having different experiences in the world. Sam Clark, CEO of Clark Construction and Lansing, who chairs that committee, has said that often to me. And so that... ability to understand that different people face different challenges that you may not be present to. And being a woman in the construction industry, you definitely face unique challenges.

crossed that frontier yet.

Yeah, that's a great question, because if we are going to and back to dominant culture, you said it. The reason we have a dominant culture of a certain type is because of the population. And it's not the fault of the men in the industry. It's just it's just is right. And. Most of us as women, when I joined FMI in 94, I did everything I could to fit in. I wore blue blazers and khakis and loafers. I dressed just like the guys. I smoked cigars when I played golf. I mean, it was just, you just want to be in the tribe, right? The dominant culture. And so I think that men being present. to what women experience. The number one microaggression against women in any work setting is being spoken over. And I watched it happen in a trailer last year where a female assistant project manager was giving an update and she'd get two sentences out and the male project manager would just start talking right over her. And finally, I said, can we go back to her point that that she was trying to make. And I asked one of the other board members if he had picked up on this. And he said, yeah, oh, absolutely. And I said, well, did you think to say anything? And so when we walk by behavior, we condone it. And I'll give you a happy story about this. We have a project with a female project manager and one of the framers on the project whistled at her one day. And she went in the trailer and she's like, maybe they were just whistling a song, you know, kind of try and write it off. And our superintendent went out and called every one of them down and said, that's our boss. That's our boss. And you'll treat her with respect. And he called the owner and the owner backed him up on it. So I think fundamentally it comes down to how do we create the kind of industry? We have 750,000 to a million person shortage right now in the US. We have to be attracting talent. And young men, I'm finding, are less tolerant of certain behaviors also, and they're leaving the industry. So how do we create this really respectful, not so stressful, not so hard that only the toughest people can survive it? I think that's a little bit of how I feel about the industry and what men can do is just think about how do we make this a great industry for everybody.

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of research out there. So. When I started, when I moved to Australia, I'd just finished my PhD in leadership. Why I thought it was a good idea at the age of 50 to fly 120 flights here as president of a company and do a PhD at the same time for four years. I'm not sure. I learned a lot about leadership, org culture, and change. Those are the three things I studied in my PhD. And I started teaching at the Australian National University in their MBA program. And I teach at the University of Denver in their MBA program. And I met a gentleman named Robert Marshall. He has an organization, K Teams, and he's studied like 800 technical teams. And one of the number one differentiators of the high performing versus low performing is whether they have women on them. And there's lots of research out there about high performing teams. In fact, I'm coaching a CEO right now of a pipeline company in Australia, and he's just purchased the company. He used to be out of sales and marketing. And all of a sudden one day I'm like, you don't have any women on your senior leadership team. And he called me back the next day and he listened to this. I have a podcast with Bob talking about his research and he goes, help me find a woman. Here's the position I have open with your network in the pipeline industry. Can you help me find the right person for this business management position? I think it's a business decision. Your teams, and once again, this is research, on all kinds of diversity, age diversity, socioeconomic background, brings diverse thinking, and you're better at problem solving as a team. And that's what we do in construction to solve problems.

And I was going to ask you this woman that you wanted to clone over and over. What was it about her that made then that's one of the things I ask people. What women do you admire in the industry? Here's a sad note. A gentleman with 30 years with a major chemical company couldn't come up with one name of a woman he admired in the construction industry. That made me sad. But when they talked about women, it's like, well, what did make them successful? Why was she so successful?

everybody's a leader in my mind.

And we have met employees like that, too. I think the interesting part, I was consulting to a large mining company in Australia and talking to one of their general managers, and they have an open cut. pit uh mine in a underground mine and in the open cup mine he had gotten to 30 women operating equipment and everything and he said it's dropped our maintenance costs by about 40 that's interesting and and he said because when the light goes on they call maintenance and they're changing the culture and then the guys go oh yeah well i'm gonna get in trouble she's calling maintenance when her lights comes on i gotta call maintenance when mine does and it just It just kind of changes the culture. And it's not like women are some superhero. Right. Whatever. But I think the other key point about the book is I've been advising all kinds of leaders. And my point about everybody's a leader, because I see people with titles that nobody's following. And I see people with no title that everybody's following. And leadership is about influence. Leadership is about change. And to be able to go back 50 years in leadership theory. So I have Olympians in the book and all kinds of different people outside of construction as well about how do you build strong relationships with people? How do you empower teams? How do you build a culture in your organization where people are doing the right thing just because they're supposed to do the right thing? And that was really one of the most fun things about the book is, you know, I've been CEO, managing director for companies. I've advised CEOs and now I've gone and wallowed around in all this theory about leadership and research and stuff. So kind of to bring that all together with hopefully what is inspiring for people as far as how to be a great leader.

1st. Fingers crossed. I'm speaking at the Associated General Contractors National Conference on April 9th. So I'd like to have some copies of the book with me. And I'm speaking at FutureCon, the big construction conference in Australia on May. I think it's May 20th and 21st. So I go back and forth between the two countries regularly. But yes, hopefully it's out on April 1st. Good.

Yeah, we all have to love the industry. I love the construction industry. We are responsible for building and maintaining the assets of civilization. Without us... nothing in the world happens, right? We don't charge our cell phones. So loving the industry is why I've stayed.

You have to surround yourself with the raving fans and give you the confidence to overcome those people that are going to doubt you. And it still happens to me. I mean, I'm 60 years old and I still experience unconscious bias or have to kind of prove myself in a way that that I know what I'm talking about. Right. And in the way maybe that a man doesn't. And so I've been running a women's leadership program in the pipeline industry in Australia. Now, the crane industry,90 percent of the women report an increase in confidence. And so it's just having that confidence. And it's having the, it's just knowing that being your authentic self, like you don't have to be like the guys, like what I did 25 years ago and the blue blazers and all that. Everybody leads in a different way. And when you think of a great leader, Brad, when you think of someone you've interacted with and you think, gosh, that person's a great leader, you know what they stand for. You know what their values are. And that's what you respect about them as a leader. And so. understanding what your leadership brand is and being authentic to yourself and your values, and then being confident that you know your stuff. And also the book actually ends with a segment on asking for help is not a weakness. I've asked for help a ton of times. When I went back for my PhD at 50, I went and found as many people as I could who'd done a PhD and said, how do I do this? Right? So it's not a sign of weakness to ask for help, but to be confident in what you do know and be authentic to your values.

Absolutely. Your brand. I just recorded a podcast with Harrison Monarth. He is a New York times bestselling author on personal brand and executive presence. And when I start with, I also run mixed gender first time leader programs. I love working with first time leaders. Nothing in engineering school prepared me to lead a plant with 800 employees. Right. And about an hour into it, I'll say, what words would you use to describe my brand? And they'll yell out, you know, confident, fun. I like to have fun, knowledgeable, approachable. I'm seen as really approachable. Everything you do. reinforces your personal brand and the way you dress the uh do you have typos in your emails i never put anything in an email that i don't want to be the headline of the denver post it all reflects back upon you male female i've had conversations with male construction executives saying hey what about a like just a a blue jacket every once in a while you know are you dressing to the part And representing not just your personal brand, but your organization. I had a conversation with the CEO once. I said, what's your voicemail message on your cell phone? He said, I don't know. I said, you should go find out. I was coaching a month later. He goes, it was horrible. And our company one was horrible. And I changed all of them. And it's all those little things that add up to a brand is a person's lived experience with you, right? And so male or female, thinking about how you dress, how you speak, how you write, everything is a reflection on your brand. And I would just say, be thoughtful about what you want that brand to be and then align everything you do, not in a disingenuous way, but once again, authentic to your values. That's what I would have to say about that. And it is unfortunate, but.

No, you're going to find lots of pictures of me playing golf with kangaroos around me. And avoiding all the poisonous snakes that are in Australia on the golf courses. But you're absolutely right. And when I left the construction industry for a bit, when my kids were seven and eight, I'd been flying every week for 11 years. I just had to get off a plane. I ran a women's foundation. I ran a nonprofit for five years. And we had 2,600 people at our luncheon. I was testifying for legislation all the time. I hanging out with the governor and the mayor. And I learned really quickly, A, in Denver, Colorado, there's only two degrees of separation between anybody. So don't make anybody mad or you're going to piss off the entire city. And that's when I started this. If I don't want it to be the headline in the Denver Post, it doesn't come out of my mouth. It's not in an email. If I wouldn't be proud, you think about if I wasn't proud, if my mother saw this or whatever, I'm continually shocked and amazed by what people put up on social media. And we all want to have fun. I mean, I have pictures of me out doing fun things on my Facebook. But yeah, I think people should really stop and think about, once again, men and women. What's the brand I'm trying to portray out there? How do I want people to see me? And yeah. I think it's important.

Well, I'm just glad social media wasn't around when I was in school. That's true.

Yeah, no, no. And I think once again, great leaders, people understand what they value people respect. I want, I just want to keep going back to this word respect because that's when we think about women or I, I had a non-binary person on my podcast. They work for a construction company. They were brave enough to be on a panel at the Australian Pipelines and Gas Association conference with me this year. They got such a great... response and support from the construction company they work for, support for their clients, and a feeling of being treated with respect. And isn't that what all of us want in the world is to be valued and respected and be able to show up at our job, do a good job, go have fun with our families, and feel like we weren't judged. And I think the chapter I wrote about organization culture how you create a value alignment throughout your entire organization. I'm working with a global mining company on this right now,10 different countries to get different cultures, different contexts where we're trying to create this overriding feeling of respect and belonging. And when you have high engagement scores with your employees, you have high productivity, you have profitability. It's a business decision. It really is a business decision.

Absolutely. You have to back yourself. You have to respect yourself. And another good friend, Gabrielle Dolan, she's written quite a few books. She's Australian on storytelling. And she just did a LinkedIn post about we play golf together. She and her husband and I a lot. And and she said, why am I taking out a bad ball when there's water in front of me? in the on the golf course, you know, I'm not backing myself, I'm literally saying I'm going to hit the ball under the water, because I'm taking out a water ball, which I've done all the time, right? And backing yourself, respecting yourself, caring for yourself, self care, I had a health scare 15 years ago, I just ran two miles. Right before we got on this podcast, I run almost every day, I've started doing vinyasa yoga, and but it is respecting ourselves. taking care of ourselves. And I say, as a leader, you need to show up like an elite athlete. You're showing up as the best version of yourself every day. And it is about respecting and caring for yourself and backing yourself and believing in yourself and having confidence. I think a lot of that behavior that you're describing, that self-destructive behavior at times can come from insecurity. I'm not a psychologist. That's one. I've joked that might be my fifth degree, but I think some of it can come from insecurity. So that just taking that time to be, and it takes time to reflect. I still have a coach. I'm 60 years old. I coach people and I still have a coach. I've had emotional intelligence coach for 10 years. That time to reflect about who am I? What do I stand for? What do I want to be putting out into the universe? What's the difference I want to be making in the world? Having those deep, reflective conversations with yourself, which can be very hard. You can be the hardest person to hang out with as yourself sometimes. But really grounding yourself, I think, is important for all of that.

And we keep learning the growth mindset. Carol Dweck, she wrote a great deal about the growth mindset. And if I ever stop getting curious, my new coach, my coach Edgar Schein passed away. He was 94. He wrote 40 books on culture and leadership. He was at MIT. I found him during my PhD. He was amazing. He was my coach for a year and he passed away in his sleep. So I hired a new coach. She has a master's, recent master's in psychology and neuroscience from King's College in London after a, I'm going to say 20 year career in finance. And I'm just picking her brain so much about what we've learned in neuroscience. We are learning. She said we've learned more in the last five years about our brains than we have in all of history before that. And so the day that I stopped being curious and you're right, the higher up people get, the more they invest. I invest more in my health. I invest more in my mind. I invest more in how I continue to develop as a person. And once again, getting better every day that there's. And sometimes I forget what I learned 10 years ago, and then I have to go back and relearn it again. I got to be a great listener, how to have empathy or whatever that is. And that was what was really fun and why there's 130 other people in my book was was bringing all those ideas. You know, Anna Mears, the most decorated summer individual Olympic athlete in Australia. She's a short track. cyclist. She broke her neck and competed seven months later in the Olympics and what she went through mentally and bringing all that knowledge to bear. I would have loved to put a thousand people in my book. I had to stop at some point. Right. But but yeah, investing in ourselves, continuing to learn, continue to be just curious, curious about the world and that I don't have all the answers and I want to keep learning.

It is. It is. And that, that's really the gift. And there are so many bright people in the world with. Great thinking, you know, having gone mechanical engineering, finance, very, you know, quantitative. And then that's what I loved about my PhD is rolling around kind of in what's going on in our brains and what is this psychology stuff and work culture and leadership and all these squishy things that are not like gravity and the natural sciences. And I really appreciate that people like Carol, people like Edgar Schein. take the time to write these books and codify in language we can understand. So when we say growth mindset, we understand what we're talking about. There's a lot of brilliant people in the world. And yeah, I hope that my book is something that people can keep on the shelf. And it, oh, I need a mentor. There's a piece on that in this book, or I don't feel like I have great trust with my team right now. There's a piece on that in this book and Carol Dweck's in the book. you know, it's just a, it's amalgamation of a lot of people's great ideas on leadership.

Absolutely. It's already on Amazon building women leaders. It's on there for pre-order Gretchen gaggle. com is how you find me and find out about what I'm doing on. boards and committees and coaching and running women's leadership. And I had a great friend who's another Wiley author say, the book is not the end, it's the start. And I'm sure you feel this way about your book. Speaking to organizations, speaking to teams, speaking to groups of men, groups of women, groups of men and women. How do we continue to have this conversation? Because I think it's through these conversations that we all understand how we help women thrive in construction.

I have two. favorites that I reread regularly, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which I think has been out for, I don't know,50 years or something, but how you build your personal mission, how you identify your values, and then Search Inside Yourself is another great book that involves a lot of people, Daniel Pink, and things on how to really develop as a leader. Those are two of my standbys that I read and reread and reread. And yeah. They mean a lot to me.

So don't ask me what the author's name is because I can't pronounce it. He was a Google, he's a Google engineer, but search inside yourself. You should be able to find.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Brad. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank