EP205: Contractor-Designer Clashes? Amy Barrickman Shares How to Work Together Smoothly!

Well, I know a lot of contractors listen to this show. So when I tell you that I am an interior designer, what kind of vision does that give you? Does that give you positive feelings or negative? I don't know. That's what I hope we can talk about.

ready? I'm so ready. I'm so excited. I've been really looking forward to this.

Okay. So, well, first of all, I love working with contractors and I'm not saying all designers feel this way, but I recognize I can't do. a good job. I can't achieve what I want to achieve without a contractor, right? Like I'm heavily dependent on a contractor. So I think maybe the challenge is the feeling is not mutual. I think some of the contractors I've worked with, they kind of feel like they don't need me on the job and that I complicate things, which I totally understand and fully admit that I do, that we, as interior designers, we do. And One of the reasons I'm so excited to talk to you about this is because I've always felt that when we work together, we create such a better product. And actually, I can really, all the designers can be helping the contractors deliver the best product and also sometimes playing intermediate when there are things going on.

Is this a genuine question or are you going to make a joke? Oh, okay. Well, that is a very good question that in the industry we're still figuring out. I mean, there is, in some states, you must actually acquire a certification to be considered an interior designer. What happened is a lot of people started calling themselves interior designer. And then if you didn't have that qualification, you could just kind of build the business. So we came up with this interior decorator thing and then that got degraded. So no one wants to be called an interior decorator. I've always said, I don't care what you call me. I don't care if you call me an interior designer, interior decorator. I think my work speaks for itself. So if my work applies to what you are looking for, then. I'm the right person for you.

Contractor, builder. Yeah,

Yeah, they're out there. I get it. And look. You work hard for that certification, so I get it, but I just think that's a fight not worth having. You know what else? I'm so glad you mentioned the parallels because I think that's something that we will talk about a lot during this conversation. And maybe not all contractors realize the... amazing amount of parallels. Interior designers are running a business just like contractors, and we all know what a struggle that can be from time to time. We're working with subcontractors that are different. You know, we're working with wallpaper people. We're working with the painters. We're working with a handyman. They're different subcontractors, and I'm not diminishing that, you know, what you guys do is actually building a house. and extremely valuable, but there are so many parallels. So whether it's what people are calling us or how we're working with our subs, how we're managing the job, we have so much in common.

Absolutely. I'm so glad you said that and that you recognize that because there are times when in the past where I've gone in and I can tell before I get there that the contractor has decided that they don't want me on the job. And I understand and look, I can charm the pants off a lot of people, but In that situation, the contractor is not my client. So, you know, it's, it can be delicate. I would say to anyone listening, and I recognize there aren't a lot of interior designers listening, but I'll talk to them. You guys, I'll handle, I'll talk to all the designers, but I would say go into it with an open mind because you're right. We as designers don't understand exactly what you're doing. And on the flip side, The contractors don't always understand what we're trying to achieve. And so much of it can be solved with communication. And I've had these amazing relationships with contractors where they're leaning on me. And of course I'm leaning on them, but they're leaning on me like, hey, can you tell her that like this piece of hardware is not going to work? Or like she wants the sink to be this. Or sometimes it's an unintentional mistake, right? Something that just happened along the way. And I can work with the client. I have the in. You know, like I have that ability to say, look, like these are things that come up across in the scope of a job. It just, these things just happen. This is normal. And I can really smooth over a lot of stuff on my contractor's behalf. So we can work together.

Oh, absolutely. And I've gone through it both ways. You mentioned that, you know, designers can bring you business. And I think that is a really valuable part of working together because I have worked with contractors where when we get along, when we can work through problems, because obviously we all know there's going to be a problem. Right. Something's going to come up on the job. We're used to it. We are problem solvers. We're doing it on the fly. So when we can work together and make each other better during that, I want to take that contractor along with me. And I'd argue, look, I'm not trying to make a gross generalization, but interior designers bring good clients because they have to have that other level of cash flow and willingness to make the job turn out well to bring an interior designer on. You know, I had a conversation after overhearing something at my favorite cabinetry store about how he didn't value interior designers. He didn't know I was in the next room. I had a conversation with him and I said, look, right now what I'm doing in your workshop is I'm making sure that my client's three-tier dessert platter fits into one of these cabinets. Do you do that? When you do a kitchen, he was like, no. And I was like, I have, I'm a layer of security for you. I'm going to be able to make sure that the client is getting all of these things so that you don't get the callbacks. And he said, I have to tell you, I have one builder that always has a designer on site and we never get callbacks there. I have another contractor who is kind of doing it himself and they're inevitably, I have to go back. I have to change things. They want. different hardware, they want drawers, whatever it may be. So I hope that we can offer that. And also, I want to hear what you think, what designers could do better in our approach to help you do your job better.

And if they're listening to this podcast, they're obviously a good one. You're invested in your business. You want to make it better. So anyone out there who cares enough to tune in, we can just assume that they're on the good side and that any challenges that are coming up are because people are still learning to work together. And there are a lot of designers who don't know how to work. with a contractor. It's definitely something I had to navigate and learn the hard way sometimes.

I completely understand where that stereotype comes from of just making everything too big and taking everything to the next level, complicating things. And I can't say that I've never been guilty of that. But I also think that when the communication is really good, when the... designer is really explaining what he or she is trying to achieve to the contractor, then the contractor can find ways to make it happen. And sometimes the contractor thinks the designer is making something bigger than they really are. Does that make sense? I've had that in a job where like, I'll just give you an example. I was, I was working on a room. Look, just like you guys, I have so many details I have to manage. I'm managing what color light bulb goes in. I'm managing where the picture frame gets hung. And I know it's not as elaborate, but I have so many details. So when it comes down to like the perfectionism, I can't manage everything to perfection. Now that's my take. I know there are designers out there who are super perfectionist, but my feeling is if it looks straight, it's straight, right? Like if it, if it functions well, it functions. It doesn't matter if like I, the level says what it says. So I had a perfect example where I went into this room. I had been in a car accident that morning, so I was really cranky. And this contractor who I really like and I had worked with before and we did a great problem, but I don't know, maybe he was cranky that day. And I said, okay, we're working on constructing this whole thing around the fireplace. But in addition to this, I need you to put recessed lights in the ceiling. And it's a standard size living room. I want six recessed lights. And he's like, okay, well, where do you want them? And I'm like, okay, well, I want them in two rows and I want them evenly spaced in the room so that the whole room gets flushed with light. And he's like, but you need to tell me where they go. And I was like, well, I just told you where I want two rows, right? Three and three. I want them even just center in the space. He's like, I'm going to need you to, and he just kept pushing back. You need to mark it. You need to measure. You need to give me the numbers. And I was really frustrated. And I was like, please don't start with me today. Just put up six lines. Now, from a contractor's perspective, I get it. You don't want me to come back and be like, well, that's not where they went. Right. My feeling as a designer is if I say I want them evenly spaced in the room and then it's not exactly what I picture, that's on me. Right. So I don't know. Maybe he could have said. Okay, I'm going to space them evenly in two rows. Will you sign off on liability that I get to choose? And I would have laughed and said, absolutely. Right? So this is kind of the type of thing. It's these dumb things that don't matter. And meanwhile, he and I are creating this amazing fireplace with all these details. We're going through all the trim. And when it comes to that, I want to be like really involved in the details. So I don't know. What's your take on that story? Do you think? I was being ridiculous. Was he being over the top? Both? What?

You know, and you know what? I respect that. I respect. And he and I have a good relationship and we've continued to work together. But I respect that you want the details. And I think, again, it comes down to communication because if he had said, hey, look, I just got to make sure these are exactly where you want them because if you come back and they're not, it's not going to be easy to move. I would have been like, it's no problem if you, because, okay, this is a challenge that I want you to weigh in on. Okay. I am an interior designer, which means, and I know all contractors can relate, I have to know everything about the house, right? I have to know everything under the roof. I have to understand it in some way. But so when it comes to something like lighting, I have a really good grasp on what that means, but I'm not a lighting expert, right? So a lot of times I'll say to a contractor, look, I want you to flush the room with light. I want there to be, I don't want shadows. I just want recessed lights. And they're like, well, do you want the four inch or the six inch? I'm like, okay, I think I want the six inch because my experience in the past has been that that gives me the widest spread. So that's going to flush the light. But you're the expert, especially if I'm talking to an electrician, you're the expert on lighting. So can you tell me what is the best for flushing the room with light? This is what I'm trying to achieve. So can you, I want your knowledge. Tell me, should I do the four inches? That is the six inch dated. And we don't want that anymore. Like, please give me all the details. And sometimes I struggle with that. So what do you think about that?

can

So it's funny because it seems like we both feel the same way, right? Like, I feel because I feel like, well, you guys are putting in recess lights all day, every day. I'm doing it once a month. Like you guys know more than I do. And you're probably thinking, well, you're the designer. Like you should know. So we're really coming from the same spot. And I do think as a contractor and as a designer, you're expected to know everything. And it's hard to say like, well, I don't know. Like you don't want to look green, right? Like you don't want to be like, well, I don't know exactly how far apart. they should be in order to achieve this lighting effect I'm going for. So it's, I think it's a place we both can learn to say like, okay, here's my experience. I had success with this and I'll say I had success with this. And maybe we need to get the electrician in there too, to be like, although frankly, even sometimes when I'm working with an electrician, I feel like we're not communicating the same language. Like, I'm like, this is what I want to achieve. And like, they're like, well, you could do it with this, this, this, and this. So I think options are good, right? If we say we want lights and you say how, where, we say flush the room and you're like, but tell me where, I think it's good for you and me to be like, okay, I think I want six. Should I do six or eight? And then you can say, I think you need eight or, you know, and if we are going back and forth with our info, with our knowledge and our info, we just get so much better. because I don't have all the info and you don't have all the info. So then we can just be a really good team.

Good. I want to hear it.

Absolutely. I totally get that. And I. think that is a really good point. And my counterpoint would be when you go to the homeowner and you ask them what lights they want, they will tell you, I don't know, I just want the room to be bright. And then you do the right thing, which is you go get what you think are good, bright lights. But what I think designers have to offer is you're not going to get the client saying, oh, well. These are these integrated LEDs are 5000 K. And now my room looks like a hospital, which you shouldn't have to know. I think the designer can help you a lot with, OK, that has to be 3000 K because we want that warm incandescent feeling. I want whenever I put in recessed lights, they've got to be warm dim. They can't just be the regular dim that turns off the light. I want the warm dim. So I have the same feeling as an incandescent where the light. goes a little orange as it turns off. Those types of details create a better outcome in the project. So I agree with you. We don't need more conversations, right? Like we have enough conversations and some designers can be long winded. I mean, not me, but some. Well, I've never been accused of that. But so anyway, my point is. Let's try. If there's an interior designer, I agree. We're adding this like third party that now you have one more person you have to get through to get the job done. That is annoying. And I would say if we can find a way to do it more efficiently, but also let that interior designer be your insurance policy. Okay. The client wants lights. The interior designer specified. Maybe she didn't show you exactly where they should be, but it's on her now. But you don't tell the client that. You tell the designer that. Okay. If you don't tell me the color temperature of the light, if you don't tell me the width, if you don't tell me if you want to baffle or whatever, then I'm taking the lead, but you, you're responsible. Or maybe it's, I mean, I don't, I'm, I'm working through this. Maybe it's texting the designer. Okay. This is what we're doing. Six lights with 3000 K warm dip, whatever. So that he or she can be like, I have that info. And if I didn't say something, then. It's on me.

That's a really good question. So, okay. Off the top of my head, I'm not thinking of like, here's a question that will tell you who you're working with. But if you set expectations with a designer and say, this is what I need. I want you to specify how wide the molding is, the color temperature of the lights. If you set very clear expectations, that designer should be able to rise to that. A good designer will be able to either rise to the occasion or tell you where that's a challenge. So one example I'm thinking of is I do a lot of built-in cabinetry. in living rooms. It makes a huge difference. Gorgeous. And built-in cabinetry, from my perspective, is something you really want a designer present on because you're spending a lot of money. And if the design doesn't come out, if the cabinetry doesn't quite look the way the client wants, you know, that's a big loss. They can be really frustrated. the designer can offer a lot but i am not um a designer that like i do a lot of sketching by hand i kind of missed the whole cab thing in school i was there like kind of learned it but we were still doing a lot by hand so you know one time i had a contractor who said i need drawings i need architectural drawings i need installation instructions and i said great I'm going to give you my sketches. I'm going to do as much as I can, but I would like to be there when this part of it happens and when this part of it happens so that I can make sure that we're on the same page. Now, I'm sure that was annoying for him, right? To have to like call one other person, but it did create a really good product and the client was absolutely thrilled. There were no questions about... oh, well, should that molding have been a little bit weird or different or whatever? So if you set the expectations for the designer, my feeling is if they will either rise to it or tell you what they need from you, I hope.

Okay, so this is a really interesting thing. I think everyone's coming from different levels of knowledge. And I think in most cases, and I can't speak for everyone, I think the designer probably has a really close relationship with the client, usually. Oh, yeah. Probably closer than the contractor and the client.

And I don't know how all designers work, but I become very close with my clients. I know. You know how many pairs of underwear they have. I know like things that you don't know about your normal friends or your family even because I'm in their house. I know everything about them.

That's exactly right. And that's why. I don't know that having, if you don't think a designer's up to snuff, I don't know that there's a battle to be won. Does that make sense? Like, I don't know. Are you asking me like, okay, this person clearly doesn't have the experience so that you would be able to go to the client and say, this is what I'm getting.

What are you talking about? I don't like that at all. Um, no, I'm joking. I, and by the way, I get up at five, but that's not the point. Um, no, you're right there. You're going to get that. And that's a personality thing. Here's what I would say. I would love to hear the comments on this podcast. I just am dying to know what everyone thinks.

I think it's going to be great too. I really think that there needs to be a formal meeting, not with or without the client, but a regular meeting. Because here's what happens is I know, and you guys, contractors can relate to this better than anyone. When I'm on the job site, I am there. I know what's going on. I'm ready to make decisions. But sometimes I can't always make those decisions, right? Sometimes there are things that come up and I need to go back. When I'm not on the job site, I've got six other people calling me and they want info about their job site. So it does sometimes become out of sight, out of mind. So one piece of advice, if possible, in a job is have a set meeting. on Tuesday at 12 or whatever it may be, you know, we're going to touch base on the job site. I think that's your best way to make sure that no matter what that designer's work ethic is, you at least have them there. And should this become a problem later, you've done all your due diligence. So they can't just claim that you didn't want to work with them or that you were being difficult because you've really put in that effort. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, you just hit

But can we talk about that? Because that really hits a nerve because I've been in situations like this and I am not. Look, not every designer's good, right? But a big problem that I, other designer friends have had is we need the contractor to stay in their lane. Ooh, sorry, sorry for the ego bump. But here's the thing. If you stay in your lane, you are going to have a happier customer. Okay, so I totally see what you're saying. And yes, there are designers funding their ideas. I get it. But assuming the client has signed off on it, I need my contractor to say, okay, I think this is a better idea over here, but it's not about that. I'm here to build. I'm here to create. I'm here to get things done. The designer has been brought in to come up with the ideas. That's all we have to sell, really. I mean, we sell other things, but

ideas people. So I would say that I think contractors should put in a bad design. even if they don't think it's right, because if there's a designer on the job, right? And then again, I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Like if you say, I'm here to put in the design that you give me. And if the client doesn't like the design, if it doesn't, if it ends up not working out for them, it's 100% on the designer. Whereas if you say, hey, look, I don't think this is the best thing. is what would be so much better. And then the client is ultimately not happy with something you may not have anticipated. It's really on you, right?

Because you've taken over the role of being the designer by saying, I think there's a better design.

That's more harsh than I mean it to be. I'm not going to tell you how to install things, right? Don't tell me how to design.

You know what? You are right when it comes to that. Okay. And you can predict things that maybe not all designers can. So I'm all about questions. So if I were in your shoes, now look, I'm not an expert contractor, but if I were in your shoes and I saw this, I would say, Hey, have you worked with something like this before? Because I have, and I'm noticing that this is this. This might crash it. You know, this could be problematic. We've run into this problem before on this job, or I can foresee asking questions, I think is the best way to do it. So, okay, let's just say we're in this situation. You and I, you're working with the client and then the client brings me in later. So you have the relationship with the client first and I deliver a design that makes sense to me, but is stupid. Okay. I would really appreciate as a designer. really, really appreciate a phone call or a text to say, hey, I just want to talk with you about this. I've been working with this client for a while and I have a sense and look, you're the designer. So I'm not disagreeing with your design, but I am concerned about how this is going to come out because of X, Y, and Z. And a really obvious thing that you do that we don't always consider is like the door opening. into the cabinet, things like that, that we should sketch out, but not every designer does. But I would really appreciate a phone call about that and say this, I just want to let you know what I'm thinking and give the functional reasons why the design could be a problem. If a contractor tells me their thoughts on that, I, at least, I can't speak for all designers, but I am so grateful. I'm like, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you so much. I'm still going to probably go to my design and adjust it so that it works a little better. But I would really, really appreciate that as a designer versus you going to the client, even though you have the relationship first, if you could give me a heads up and give me an opportunity to correct it. And then, yeah, I agree, fire designers and same thing, vice versa. I don't think we should waste time working with people where we don't jive because a lot of it's relationship, a lot of it's personality. And if it's not working, there are so many fish in the sea.

Yeah, and designers and contractors have different... And naturally, the people who are drawn to one career and the other tend to have different communication styles. So it's like a perfect storm in a lot of ways. Yeah.

Okay. Can I ask you a question about that? So, okay, let's say I'm on a job and I have a design that I've worked out. I've sketched it. I've worked it out on the computer. I've. I have all these inspiration photos. And then you start putting something up and I see something and I'm like, oh, I was not anticipating that in this space. And that looks a little bit different. What's the best way to approach you when you notice that? And I'm saying this is my fault, right? Like as the designer, but it's going to happen on the job. So what's the best way to approach you?

It's the end. Okay, let's assume it's the end.

Gallery wall. Well, so hopefully we'll talk just a minute about.

I totally get that. Right. Okay. That is totally fair. And believe me, the designer does not want to come in and change things. Like we want to get out just as much as you do. Like really at the end of the day, we want to get our check and get out. I mean, we love these people, but we've got other jobs to do, but then there are times where things do come up.

is totally understandable. I would say, okay, let's say, let's just use an example. Let's say we're working on a built-in and when it comes, when it's installed, I look at the crown molding and I'm like, oh, that just doesn't fit it. It's not right for the house. I might say, hey, oh my gosh. I always try as a designer to start and focus on all the good things because. There are so many good things, right? So like if I'm doing a built-in in that situation, I'd be like, the built-in looks amazing. This looks so good. And I'm realizing I made not a great choice on that crown molding. Can you help me out? And guys, like I said, I'll talk to the designers. I'll tell them to do this. But can you help me out? What are my options, right? So I had a contractor once, bless his heart, he's no longer with us. He was so good at this. I was like, exact example. It was crown molding. I'm like, it just looks so like dinky. It's this big thing. And now it just looks so weird. He's like, what if I stepped out like three different pieces? They were just like square boards to make like a fake, you know, to make it look more grand or whatever. He was willing to work with me and he gave me options. And that probably wasn't the only option he gave me. He probably gave me an option I hated first. And I was like, what else, Joe? Like, give me, give me all the ideas. So look, you guys have to get paid, right? Because if you're not getting paid for your time and expertise, then it's not good for anyone. It's not good for the client. It's not good for me. So I certainly don't think you should have to waste your time on a designer who's just being fussy. But I would ask for you to work with us if you're in a situation. Look, I'm. Anyone who's going to come in and say that whole thing's terrible, well, they're just a jerk. Okay. So we can't fix those people. But I think most designers, they really just want the best outcome. They do not want to redo things. So if you work with them and be like, okay, well, what is it that's bothering you about this? What is their specific part? If you're willing to make little changes, the designer is going to love you so much and they will want to bring you on to other jobs in the future. And they may even learn to be a little more thoughtful in the beginning of the process after having had that experience with you.

And we love that. Because a designer has an ego too, right? So the designer has to feel like I'm here to come to call the shots on the design. So if you give me three choices, I'm still calling the shots on the design. But now you've given me choices that are manageable, that are realistic, that, you know, so we can, we work together in that way. Yeah.

coming and ruining everything.

I haven't heard that. And now it will never leave me. I really appreciate that you said that because I, and look, I don't expect to be treated like the client in every way, but I would like to be treated like the client when it comes to that. And in return, I said this in the beginning, you know, I want to be on your team too. Right. Like I want to sing your praises to the homeowner. I want to say, didn't he do an amazing job with that built in? And, you know, when I came in, I didn't love the molding and he was so willing. He was this, he or she came up with like, they gave me three ideas, three different choices. So I was able to pick the one that best suited our design plan. So like this contractor is awesome. Tell all your friends. Right. So I hope that most designers would do that as well. If you give us a little bit of that power for the choice, we're going to really sing those praises and take you on the good jobs.

Yeah, there's a barrier to entry. I always say that. You can design, you can hire a designer for an hour, but even that, if you're willing to pay me $200 an hour, you have a certain level of spend that you want to do on your house and you care, right? Money's not all. You have to be someone who both has the funds and cares and wants to invest and make it look good. Your pictures are going to look great, by the way. Side note, one of my favorite contractors, he and I always go in on pictures at the end of a job. Like right there, you're saving money. He's like, I love it because you come in and you put the flowers and you do the things that I don't even think to do or care to do. He's like, and I pay half for the photos. He's like, this is the best thing ever. And for me, it's the best thing ever because I would normally have to pay all of that.

Gold nugget. We're bringing them.

My thoughts are, I don't want to be the project manager, but sometimes I feel like I have to be. So do you mean when you're working on a job and the interior designers coming in being like, well, when are those stairs going in or?

So it's been so interesting since I started in design, the popular pricing model has changed drastically. I started my business really, it was 2010 was the official start, but I was already dabbling in 2008,2009. So it was right after the financial crisis. And one of the reasons that I was able to get teeth early on is because I didn't play that game where I upcharge you for this. I upcharge you for that. I charge by the hour. And that way I don't ever have to sell anything to you because I'm just getting my hourly fee. Now, look, there are times when I order furniture and I have, I get a wholesale discount. I have to take a markup because I will go out of business if I'm doing all the work it takes to maintain those relationships. But when it comes to contractors, I don't believe in marking it up because it's already expensive. And also I, it puts this weird feeling between me and the client. So in general, I do not think designers should mark up contractor services. And now let's talk about the flip side of that. So that's just kind of my personal opinion. The flip side is a lot of designers, they are presenting the all in package, right? Like, hi, I'm your designer. I'm going to make your kitchen amazing. And here's the total bill. So then they're going to hire and buy everything. Business-wise, I don't necessarily think it's the best move, but they're going to do that. And if they are the one who has the client and they're bringing you in, then I think the contractor has to just kind of stay out of it. Is it a frustration for you? Is that why you're asking about it?

Right. No. And you shouldn't, you shouldn't have to compromise. Okay. So this is interesting.

Well, here we go. Communication again, because my feeling is I, if I know that about. the con how the contractor is working i want to defend him or her you know i want them to get what they need so if a contractor said to me hey if you're going to build a client that's fine i it's a whole job thing this is my numbers are based on a whole bunch of things and i need you to commit to that whole job The other thing I'm just going to throw out there, and I don't know if this is exactly what you're going at, but sometimes a contractor will give me a bid and they kind of break things down, but it's in these like very general numbers. I understand you've been doing this for years and you're like, yeah, that's probably going to cost that. But what happens sometimes is a client then looks at this bid and they're like, wait, $5,000 to demo this? That seems like too much. And then Amy, you have experience. Do you think that's the right number? And I find that really challenging because I recognize that I don't understand what's in that number. I recognize they might be renting a dumpster. That might mean six guys doing it in 12 hours. I have no idea. So I'll tell the client, look, I can't tell you for sure. I'm not an expert, but I definitely recommend that you ask the contractor. personally, because when you guys are bundling these things, but then still breaking it out, then you get this analyzation, right? So that's why

Well, part of me is like, should you break out everything? Okay. So this is really interesting because when we sell window treatments, it's the same thing. And I started my pricing model where I would break it out. The fabrics this much, the labor is this much. This is blah, blah, blah. And then I switched to just a big price. It's hard because sometimes someone picks a fabric that's $300 a yard. Sometimes they pick one that's 30. I mean, that's a huge price difference. So I like when contractors break out prices for me.

You think it's just too much effort?

But when I get a line item estimate, I feel like it's really been thought through. So, and then here's just one other thing. Sometimes I'm doing a job. I'm like, okay, I think I want. this tile here, but there's a chance we might do hardwood or we might.

That makes a lot of sense. What if I'm like, okay, in this bathroom, the client thinks they want a steam shower. But there's a chance we might not do that steam shower. And if we don't do the steam shower, we're going to do a soaking tub. So it's going to change the layout. So can you break it out so that I can see how much it is with the steam shower and how much it is with the soaking tub? How annoying is that to you?

I get it.

So that makes sense. And I would say that's another one where. If you get on the phone with me, the contractor that I work with the most, and he and I just really get along well, whenever he leaves a consultation, he'll give me a call and he'll be like, okay, what do you think? Like, are they leaning toward the steam shower? And I'll be like, well, they kind of want to know the pricing. Like, can you give me an idea? Is it 20,000 more? Is it 60 more? Like, that's where we can really help each other because there are times when I'm like, look, they are prepared to spend that. They really want this, but they're not going to spend it. on that thing over there. So, you know, he and I can work together and he can be like, oh, great. Okay. I'll source those cabinets from X, but I'm going to prepare for the steam shower. So yeah, it kind of comes back to communication and to follow up on, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say to follow up on what you initially asked about that I took us so far off was you were asking about when the contract or when the designer is kind of running like a project manager, I respect the. contractors who respect themselves, right? So I need the communication. But if you said to me, hey, Amy, I gave you this bid for the total project. You're now asking me to do this piece of it for less, or you're not doing this piece and it's messing with my books. I'm going to go back to the client and find the money, right? So if I understand where you're coming from, not only will you get what you're due, but like, I'm going to get it for you. Right? Like, I'm going to fight for you. But I have to understand it. If you don't, if you're just kind of like there and then gone, and I'm like, well, why can't we need, can't he just do this for less? It seems like he's already doing this anyway. That's maybe where it could go off course.

Well, I agree with that. And I think there needs to be someone who is leading the ship. And if you are really... in communication with the designer, then they should be more comfortable with that. They should be happier in that scenario. It just made me think of how, especially earlier in my career, contractors would offer like kind of a kickback. Like they'd be like, oh yeah, if you get me this job, I'll give you like 10% back. And there was like one job where I did that. And then I ended up, by the way, giving like so much free time to the client. Like I probably lost money by taking it because I felt a responsibility. for it. Whereas normally I would have just built the client and not cared about it, but because the contractor is giving it to me. But so anyway, my point is I personally don't expect contractors to give me anything back, but I do expect them to take my phone calls. to show up for the, and you're saying, of course, and I know probably most people listening to this are like that, but the only thing I ask is, okay, you don't have to give me money. You don't even have to give me a discount in my own home, but be there for me. If it's, you know, the day before Christmas, okay, not Christmas Eve, but if it's the day before Thanksgiving and like something's going wrong, please like. Pull the one guy and send him over. I ask for the emotional support. That's not really what I mean, but you know what I mean? That's in my opinion, that's how you build a good relationship. The money is not building the relationship. It's here, it's gone.

absolutely. And the truth is designers, clients, they want to work with the people who do really good work. And at the end of the day, the price sensitivity is I work with these clients who have a lot of money and yeah, they'll rip apart your quote, but at the end of the day, they want the good thing, right? They're willing to pay for it. So I've even said to the one guy I was telling you about, I said to him, look, don't. Yeah, he's going to, this client's going to push back on that number. That doesn't mean you shouldn't charge it. I need you to make money because I need you next month and next year. So I need you to make money. I need you to be happy about showing up to this job. I need you to want to take my phone call. So don't cut your prices for this. Charge what is right. I mean, please don't charge a lot just because they have the money, but charge what is fair. And then you're going to be rewarded in so many ways. Yeah,

Oh, well, the feeling is very mutual.

I mean, no, honestly, based on the way you're describing, really, I want a contractor who's going to hold up, stand up for his work. I will work with someone even if there have been mistakes. If they're willing to come back. and take care of them, that is more valuable to me than so many other things in contracting.

And asking questions. I would say that the takeaway that I'm getting from talking to you and also that I hope listeners will take away is ask questions. If you're thinking like this doesn't make sense, this isn't working, ask questions. Why are you thinking this? What is it? And hopefully we can all kind of come meet in the middle.

Okay. Yes. I like that.

Yes.

Thank you. Well, please tell them your clients may be a step, you know, further than this, but I wrote a book called the living room design formula. And it is releasing soon. It's basically what I tried to do is put together an easy guide for someone to create their own living room design so that they don't have to work with a designer. Hey, maybe you have a client that wants a designer, but you don't want to work with a designer on your job. Give him my book. Give him a copy of my book so you don't have to deal with one of us. No, all joking aside, though, I wanted I have. the blessing of always having had too much work. I've always had too many inquiries and not been able to handle them all. And it just makes me feel kind of bad. So I thought, how can I help more people? So I put together this book. It's called The Living Room Design Formula. If anyone out there is interested, they can go to LR. design formula, LR for living room, designformula. com. And that will give them all the info about getting the book. And I also have something that could be useful for your listeners to give clients or work with clients on, which is... I have a free PDF on that website where you can get all the instructions to do a really beautiful gallery wall. So maybe you have a client who has just a blank wall and they don't know what to do with it. I'm going to give you these easy step-by-step. It's like one or two pages. Step-by-step, it tells you which frames to order and to hang something that looks really amazing. you or a client, it could be a great free download for you. So check that out at lrdesignformula. com.

I mean, obviously the living room design formula is the book to read. Okay. So this is. This book for parents, if you have, especially if you have a parent of a teen, it's called, I'm not someone who really curses a lot, but that's the name of the book. If you look it up, it's like, can you help me give a S-H star T? And it's done by this researcher in education. And basically what she found is, you know, a lot of kids aren't. interested in school. They can learn so much on YouTube. They see these amazing teachers on YouTube and they're like, why should I sit through Mr. Murphy's math class? You know, so this book is really interesting because this researcher kind of went in and she got all of the details about why kids feel that way and what we can do and how we as parents can kind of give them a really good outlook on. how we can kind of step back, not be too involved, but be the right amount of involved. So it was really interesting to me. It's a great book. Anyone should pick it up. It's by Dr. Rebecca Block. You said Block? Yes. Dr. Rebecca Block.

Are you saying that you will not take a role in that? Because yeah, my husband's the same way. He'll be like, give me the cliff notes. I'm like, no, read it. He's like, but why? You read it.

Where are my keys?

I had a great time too. I really enjoyed this. And I hope that maybe we helped at least one relationship between a designer and contractor out there. I'm

I am so excited to hear what people think because a lot of it is a mystery to me.