People don't buy a piece of paper. They're buying an experience that only you can provide. Every day in America, there is a homeowner who opens three PDFs, picks the cheapest one, and calls your price a ripoff. Same scope on paper, same materials, same truck. So why did you lose? Because the bid isn't the product anymore, the experience is. Stop selling a piece of paper. If you're going to charge more, give more, but not the way you might think. Hey, welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Brad Headmer. I'm a licensed general contractor, author of the Contract Your Profit Blueprint, and business coach to overwhelmed and stuck contractors who are trying to boost their profits and regain their freedom by showing them how to charge what they're worth. In today's episode, we're talking about how you can charge more and still win quotes when everyone out there is trying to be cutthroat and look for the cheapest price in order to just fill their schedule. The goal is not to be busy, the goal is to be profitable. So let's talk about uh selling the PDF. In the intro, I talked about many people are trying to sell a piece of paper. And I've I've mentioned in many past episodes that the goal is not to sell someone with the estimate. If you're waiting for someone to approve the estimate in order for you to know if you got the job, you're doing it completely wrong. You should know that you've sold the job before you ever even do the estimate. Now, most of you are gonna say, Brad, that's not possible. I mean, how are we supposed to know? You know, it doesn't matter until the money's collected and there's a signature on the line. And I get that, I understand that, right? Like, yes, legally you have to collect money and you have to get a contract, but we're talking about the emotional sales, right? You've sold them emotionally, and now all they have to do is go back and really try to convince themselves. The client has to convince themselves why not to hire you, even if you're the most expensive contractor out there. Right now, according to some statistics, and forgive me, I don't have them pulled up here right in front of me, but uh there's roughly six percent net profits, is the average right now going around. So most contractors are making less money. And I think it was one out of four, if I'm not mistaken, on the on the numbers, that one out of four home builders in 2025 showed no profit. 25% of home builders were making zero money, right? Zero profit. Most of this happens, not specifically in home building, but across the construction industry together. The reason why people don't make money is because they don't charge enough to begin with, which is why everything I talk about is profit. Number two, they underestimate, meaning the actual length of the job, how many labor hours or materials they're underestimating. And three, they have no idea what, like from an efficiency perspective, what their production is doing. So they're underpricing, they're underestimating, and they're not producing efficiently. And those three things together are killing you, like literally killing your business, right? So we have to charge more across the board. We have to charge more. Profit is not a dirty word. The reason why that's my tagline is because that is the number one thing that you have to do right. You have to charge more. It is a top-of-funnel activity, meaning you can be super efficient, you can save $2,000 in efficiency, right? But if you underprice the job, then you're only going to make up that efficiency, say that two grand. Whereas contractor B, if they're charging $10,000 more than you, even if they have zero efficiency or even lose $2,000 in efficiency, they're still making $8,000 more than you. So that's why it's it's a top of funnel uh activity. It has to be right at the top of the funnel. Once you have your once your pricing jobs correctly, then you can work on efficiency and add even more profit to the equation. It doesn't happen the other way around. You simply have to start charging more. Period. That's it. End of the equation. Just charge more. Then work on everything else. All right. But here's the challenge. Once you start charging more, which is as simple as changing a number on the piece of paper or on the digital contract, you're literally just changing the number. Instead of charging $30,000, you're charging $40,000. Instead of charging $100,000, you're charging $120,000. It's simple. It takes two seconds. It's easy to do. The challenge where most contractors fail is they don't know how to provide the value that warrants a higher price tag. They're simply hoping that the scope of work on their paper, the bid, is what's going to quote, convince them why they should hire you. And that is not what happens in real life. In real life, people buy how it feels to hire you. It's a 100% emotional decision. Now, let's get one thing straight from the get-go. Are there people out there that are never going to hire you in the first place? Yes. Are there people out there that can only hire based on their budget because financially they can't afford more than that? Yes. Those people are not your customer from the get-go. They're not your customer. So if you're including those people into your marketing, then yes, you're going to have a lot of disappointment because you're going to spend a lot of time and energy and effort to try and convince someone why they should pay you $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 more, 10%, 20% more than the other guys when they simply can't afford it. They don't have the financial means. That doesn't mean they're bad people. It doesn't mean that they have unrealistic expectations. It doesn't mean that they're trying to purposely waste your time. It simply means that financially they can't afford to pay a premium. Those are not your customers, and that's perfectly okay, right? Your job is not to find a price that your customers are willing to pay. If you have that really nice couple that you really like and you really want to work for, and their budget is $30,000, and that's the maximum they can spend, and what they want for you to produce cost $40,000 or $50,000, then there's nothing you can do to help them in that situation if they truly can only afford that. It doesn't make them a bad, a bad couple or a bad client. It doesn't make you a bad contractor. That's just the facts of what's happening, right? And so if you pursue those people and they simply don't have the means, that's on you. You've wasted all of your time. So we're not talking about those people. We're talking about when you're in front of the right client who has the financial means to pay more, and then you lose those jobs, it's simply because you're not providing enough value in the process. Now, I talk, I call this a value stacking, where you're stacking value throughout the whole process. But too many contractors are relying on the piece of paper to do the selling for them. I've said this before. Now we can host and have pool parties and you know, this basement, I can turn it into a weight room, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're thinking in their head, the potential buyer is thinking how they're going to use this space. They're they're projecting the results, right? The outcome of what's going to happen if they buy this property. Now they put in a proposal, a contract of what they're willing to pay, right? And then the the seller can agree to that. But all of that up until that point is an emotional experience. Once the seller comes back and says, yes, we agree to your uh your offer, then they go through the due diligence portion. They go through the the background, they go through the loans and all that stuff and the title check and blah, blah, blah. They do all of the paperwork side of it. And then once you go to closing and you sign your name, then that house is theirs. The sale was made, the the house was sewed emotionally before the contract was signed. That's how you approach sales in construction or anything for that matter. It's an emotional experience. Too many contractors think the product, meaning the the cabinets or the countertops or the landscaping stones or the pool or whatever it is, the finished product is what people are buying. And that's not what they're buying. They're buying what that experience, or I'm sorry, what that outcome is going to create in terms of experience, and then they're buying you in how you create that experience through the sales process. If I've confused you, hang with me because I'm trying to unpack this, right? You have to sell an outcome. People talk about sell the sizzle, not the steak. It applies here. Like you're selling an experience, not the physical product. And for too many contractors, I hear people all the time like, Brad, I need a better estimating process. Okay, why? Because I'm doing so many estimates. It takes so much time. If I could just have a very streamlined estimating process, then I can just spit out contracts and estimates right and left, and I can get more of these, you know, I could sell more jobs. You're approaching it 100% wrong. Your job is not to make estimating more efficient or faster so that you can throw more estimates out. Your job is to only do estimates for people who are going to hire you. That means you instead of doing 25 estimates a week, you should only do two or three. Now, you tell me which saves more time doing two or three estimates that take a little bit longer, maybe two hours each, or turning 25 estimates and being able to do it in 30 minutes. I would rather do two or three estimates a week of jobs that I know have sold. And this is where the difference is. This is where the experience is. Now, this is not just a single silo part of your business. There's multiple parts to this, right? So you have marketing side of it. The marketing has to be on point. This is where your website, having a really good website, this is where uh SEO, this is where blog posts, this is where social media, like all of that work that you're doing that takes an enormous amount of energy and time, is the marketing piece of this that makes the sales piece much, much easier. So if you're doing really heavy social media content, blog posts, really good website, your branding is on point, those are all value stacks. You're stacking value in the process that they're going through. If you simply have no website, no vehicle wraps, nothing, and you're just working off referrals and someone says, Oh, you got to hire Brad, he's a great carpenter, and then they call you and you're like, Yeah, I can come out there and give you an estimate, I got to come by and look at it. You have provided zero value up until that point, zero value to the customer. Whereas if you do the value stack and you get your marketing on point, you're providing value through there. Reviews, Google Reviews provides value. It provides legitimacy, it provides certainty of achievement. If your company has 235 reviews and it's a 4.9 or 5-star rating, and your closest competitor has 20, that's a huge value stack. It's a huge value add to your business. Okay, now I know I'm talking about some marketing, but this really isn't about marketing. This is about the overall experience. So now, once they reach out and now you're having the phone call with them, this is where you start adding more value. And you do it by having a better sales process. Now, I'm not going to get into the sales process here because I've done many, many podcasts on it. And honestly, that's one of the most valuable things that I do for clients is show them and teach them how to do the profit sales system and how to add this value. Uh, and it I can't just tell you in a 30-minute podcast, but know that you're value stacking, you're stacking value along the process. So by the time they go to sign the paper, you've already performed. If we were, if we were adding values as a as a digit, right? Like each piece of value as a value of one, you've already provided 20, 30 points of value compared to the other guy who just came out, answered his phone, came out and gave him an estimate. So you're 30 points of value ahead of the other contractor who just provided an estimate. If you're the other contractor who just provided the estimate, that's why you're losing to more expensive contractors because the client is getting more value in the process, right? So the first thing is stop selling the PDF. Just stop. Right? Homeowners don't buy your number, they buy how it feels to hire you. A bare bid is a commodity, and I've told you this before: if you're just throwing out a bid and it just says, you know, remodel the bathroom, $30,000, all they have is a number to go off of. So detailed scope of work, lumps on pricing because we don't want to create a uh line item pricing situation where the customer doesn't understand the difference. So we don't even want to go down that road, right? The product is the experience around the work. So the actual product that you're providing the client is the experience. And I show this all the time to contractors and people because if you go to a restaurant and you, it's a really nice restaurant and you have a terrible experience, you had to wait forever to get served. Uh they never topped off your drinks, you know, they just they were kind of not necessarily rude, but they weren't really very friendly, you leave that restaurant saying, Man, that's uh I had a really bad experience here, I probably will never come back. Even if the steak or whatever you were getting was amazing, the experience always leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Conversely, if you go to a okay restaurant, or even if the restaurant is supposed to be high-end and the food is not that great, like it's average at best, but you have an amazing experience, you leave there saying, Wow, that was that restaurant was fantastic. The experience was amazing. We'll probably go back there. And if you can do both a great experience, a great piece of steak, I'm sorry, if you can do a great product, a great piece of steak, and a great experience, then there's no stopping you. To this day, over 15 years later, my wife and I still talk about the the steakhouse that we went to on our honeymoon. Now there's a couple different reasons why. One, because it was in uh Pompano Beach, it's a chart house, if you've ever been there. Uh, we went on set, we got married in September, Labor Day weekend. Uh, that's like after the the vacationers, right? After the the tourist season. And so we we went to the steakhouse, which normally has like an hour wait, and there we are like one of three couples in the entire restaurant because all of tourism was gone, right? So we had basically the restaurant to ourselves, which obviously added to the experience, but they knew that we were uh recently engaged or married rather. And so on the menu, they put our name on the top of the menu, and we got to keep that menu as a memento. But on top of that, it's one of the best steaks I've ever had. Hey, just a quick timeout from the show. If you're a frustrated contractor who's dealing with low profit margins, stuck working on the tools every day or doing free estimates for people who are never going to hire you in the first place, I invite you to my private contractor community, the Profit Club, where contractors just like you are adding two to three times more profit each year without producing any more jobs and finally getting completely off the tools to never do another free estimate again. So if you're ready to increase your profits, stop doing free estimates and get off the tools, then all you have to do is click the link in the show notes to learn more about the Profit Club and see how it can easily two to three times the cash in your pocket, give you a proven sales process that will convert more jobs with ease and get you off to tools once and for all. And the best part is you can do all of this without having to produce more jobs than you currently are. Click the link to learn more. Now let's get back to the show. So every time I buy steak, I compare it to my experience at the chart house. But here's what's crazy. Again, it's 15 years ago. I don't remember what the takes the steak tasted like. I don't have like taste bud memories. I don't remember how good the steak tasted. I know it was good, but what I'm really doing, if I'm if I think about this, I what I'm really doing is substituting the experience with the taste of the steak. And then I'm using that to say it was an amazing steak. It was good, don't get me wrong, it was an amazing steak. But the overall experience that we had going there overshadows the taste, right? So I still talk about that experience to this day over 15 years ago. That it's exactly what I'm talking about, what you should be doing with your clients. And what too many of you are doing back to the 25 estimates a week. When you're trying to bust out 25 estimates a week, you're not spending enough time with each client to provide the appropriate amount of value to them. You're showing up and you're like, hey, I got 30 minutes to get this estimate done. Let me go around and take some measurements, and then I'll get back to you. Sound good? Okay, great. It might be two weeks before I get the estimate because I'm super busy. And then you're on to the next one. And you're just stacking estimates all day. If you don't have a full-time salesperson doing sales calls and you're the owner, it's even more important that you are pre-qualifying people before you go out there. That way you're spending more time with them. And this goes into like charging for estimates. Well, Brad, how does charging for estimates provide more value? Well, it absolutely does. Are you more willing to spend more time with someone if they're paying you $250, $300, $500,000, $1,500? Are you more focused? Are you more willing to spend extra time? Are you willing to go and do over the top, right? To do more than what you think might be required? Absolutely you are. You're going to provide the customer a better experience because they're paying you and you want them to get that value, right? Now, this isn't about just making money. Yes, I started with profit's not a dirty word. But the truth of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of contractors, at least that I work with, they all want to do a great job. They all want to be able to pay their employees well. They all want to be able to take care of their clients. I'm sorry, their their family. They want to be able to take care of their family. They just want to be able to have a good business that everyone benefits from. Nobody's out here trying to be, you know, take advantage of customers. Like really none of the contractors that I work with. The reality is because people that are just trying to take care of you, they don't look for coaching. I mean, they're that are just trying to take advantage of people, they don't look for coaching. That's not their goal. Right? The people that are looking for coaching are generally good people that are trying to better their their business. And they want everyone to benefit. They're not just greedy, you know, capitalist people that want to take advantage of. No, that's not what's happening. That's not what's happening. Most of you are really good people and you want to be able to take care of your family and your employees and your clients. And when you charge more, when you charge for a uh uh consultation, you're able to provide that value. So that's a yes, you are providing actual value. Secondarily, second, secondly, secondarily, yeah, that word. Uh, when you when you prov when you're charging people, it's a perceived value from the client's perspective, right? Like none of you that I know of, or that I mean, I'm guessing here, maybe I'm wrong. I don't think any of you have like the president's cell phone number on speed dial. Like you wouldn't expect to be able to just call the president and talk to him directly, right? Like you'd have to go through like 15 people, probably wait two weeks to get a phone call, right? Because he's a super busy person, he's doing his thing, right? Most of you would not expect that. If you answer the phone on the first ring and you're like, yeah, I'll run out there right now and give you an estimate, or I'll drop everything I'm doing and coming out there, or on the way home, I'll stop by there. What you're signaling to the client is that you really don't value your own time and you're somewhat desperate. And that's not a value add, that's a value subtraction, right? People that have a, you know, when I when in my business, because I had so many reviews and so many people, uh, so much content out there, people would call me like, hey, I know you're super busy. Like, I know it's probably going to be, and we're expecting you it's going to be like six months before you can get out here, right? They already have the perceived idea that we're super busy, which we were, but that we were super busy and that they almost felt like they were inconveniencing us with their project. Too many times, like, I don't know, our project's probably too small for you guys, you know, but this is what we want done. It didn't matter. It didn't matter if they wanted us to clean their gutter or remodel their kitchen for 100 grand. It didn't matter. We everyone got treated the same. Everyone got the same level of respect and the same level of treatment. Too many of you are just chasing the big ones and screwing yourself, shooting yourself in the foot because you're bypassing, you know, the secondary ones that are actually your better, your better jobs. Everyone gets the same experience. People that would reach out to us and be like, hey, uh, you know, we're looking to get somebody to come out here and and uh replace our roof. Well, we didn't do that. That wasn't our service. What's the majority of the industry do? Never call them back. That's a wasted, that's not a good lead, Brad. It's a waste of time. What did we do? We reached out to every single person, even if it was just an email back. Hey, Cindy, thanks for reaching out. Really appreciate it. Unfortunately, we don't do roofing, so we can't help you this time. However, here's some recommendations. Or sorry, we couldn't help you. Every single person, we're averaging like 60 leads a month, something like that. Some days there'd be 10 calls or leads a day. Every single person, we would reach back out to them, even if it wasn't work that we did. Why? Because those people in the future may have work for us. Half you guys are screwing yourself because you're only focused on the immediate lead that's like we want to buy right now, and we have an unlimited checkbook, and we just want you to do the work as soon as you can, and that's all you're focusing on. Meanwhile, the client that calls in and says, Hey, do you do roof? No, sorry, we don't. You know what I got back 99% of the time? Thank you so much for letting me know none of the other contractors we've contacted would even get back to us. That's a value add in the process. And then guess what? Three months, six months, two years later, they're calling us back to do their bathroom. It wasn't a need right then, but because we are the contractor that set the value that were providing the most value in the process, we got the return visit, the return call. So it's the experience. Even when you tell people no, we can't help you. That's an experience. That's a value add. So let's tell a little bit of step. Talking point one is stop selling the PDF. Uh, and I gotta hurry up because we're already 30 minutes in. Holy crap. Okay, talking point number two. I'm looking at my notes here, right? So the second thing I want to talk about is there's a book called Unreasonable Hospitality. I recommend every single one of you read this book or get it on Audible and listen to it. Uh, it's about Will Gardera, who was a uh restaurateur for 11 Madison Park, right? And it was a restaurant in New York City. Uh, I don't know the exact number, maybe it was a three-star Michelin rating. I mean, it's like one of the highest-rated restaurants in the world. They didn't start out that way, but they became that way. And what they figured out is how to provide amazing experiences for their clients. Now keep in mind, this is a fine dining restaurant. The type of restaurant where like half the time you don't even get to pick what meals you eat, and it's like a seven-course meal, you know, and you have like nine uh silverware on your table, and most people don't even know what the which fork is a salad fork. You know what I'm talking about? You have to wear a suit to go there. That's the kind of restaurant this was. Okay. Fine dining. Um, and what they figured out was how to provide, they figured out how to standardize a unique experience, which is the last point I'm gonna get into. But they figured out how to standardize a unique experience, meaning for every customer, every client, the experience was different. They had a different experience, but they figured out how to standardize that experience. So what they figured out was they would have I think they called them runners. Forgive me, I don't remember. I think they're called runners, but they would have two or three runners on standby. And as the client would come in, they were consciously looking for opportunities to provide an amazing experience. And so once the waiter or someone, uh the server or whoever would like hone in on something, then they would go back and tell the runners, and the runners would go and make it happen. Right? I mean, they created like three or four positions, and their only job was to create a unique experience for the for the client. So they one example they said in the book is there was a uh three women who went to New York for like a vacation trip or whatever, and it was the last night they were there, they were leaving in the morning to go back home, and they were trying to do all these experiences, and they started talking about um the one thing they wish they would have been able to do was to actually just buy a you know a dirty water dog, a hot dog from a cart vendor, because New York's known for all their dirty water dogs, right? So they that's what they wish they would have been able to do. They didn't get the chance to, they got to leave early in the morning. The server hears this, goes to the runners, tells them, what do they do? They go out to the street vendor down the road, they go to the hot dog stand, they order, you know, they buy or whatever hot dog, one or two or three. They come back, they take it to the kitchen, they chop it up into like two or three little bites. They actually like present it, like it's like a you know, a fine dining experience. They drizzle their ketchup and mustard on there and make it like they present it like it's this amazing dish. It's just hot dogs. And then they go out and they take it to the three ladies, and they set it down, and they say, you know, we couldn't help but overhear that you didn't get a chance to uh you know have a New York hot dog, and we wanted to make that happen for you. A fine dining restaurant serves a uh street vendor hot dog. They turned it into an amazing experience, and those three women left there completely shocked. Like they were fans of the restaurant forever, forever, evermore. And they go on and tell everyone else that story. I mean, in a sense, they were basically buying a competitor's product, a hot dog, and serving it, right? That's what I mean by providing an experience. It's not just giving them a piece of paper. Is it starting to lock in now? Like, here's an estimate. I hope you sign it. Here's an amazing experience that's unique to you. When you know, when are you going to sign it? Because like it's already, they've already decided. They're like, give us the estimate. We want to sign this. If you're in the first camp where you're just giving out estimates and hoping you land jobs, no wonder you're not landing jobs, and no wonder you can't sell jobs at a higher profit margin. The that restaurant's like super expensive. You know, a party of three might pay like two, three, four hundred dollars for a meal, depending on what they get. And they served them a $2 hot dog and made them raving fans. It's not about giving more value in the sense of you have to give them more warranty, a longer warranty, or give them upgraded products. It's not the it's not the tangible things that you have to do, it's the intangible things. It's the experience that nobody else can replicate. You have to figure out what that is for you, what makes you unique, and then figure out a way to productize that, which is our last talking point here, which is productize the intangibles, like Eleven Madison Park did. They figured out a way to create a unique experience for every client that was not standard, and they standardize the way of which they provide that experience. You can do the same thing. Recently this week, one of my clients, John, Jonathan, uh, he does wine cellars. And uh, I'm hoping to get John on the podcast. He doesn't know this yet. So maybe if you uh send out some comments and like we can encourage John to jump on here and talk about his journey because it's an amazing journey. I love what John's doing. He's uh he's a wine cellar builder in New Orleans, and uh he figured out how to use AI to create a customized brochure with like their wine cellar for every client that he talks to. And he he's trained the models, he's done the homework, he's set it up so that once he goes to a client and he talks to them, he comes back, puts in the prompt, it spits out this amazing brochure that's customized to them, specifically what they want, what they talked about, colors, designs, ideas, and he sends that over along with the final estimate. It's not a it's not like a design, like a full design. It's just like a simple image, right, with like talking points of like this is the type of uh wood and this is the size and blah, blah, blah. Right? It's it's more like a visual representation of the estimate, if that makes sense. He's figured out how to standardize that using AI so that within a few minutes he can spit this out, send it over to the customer, and his uh, you know, his closing ratio has gone up. Now he just started recently doing this, but he just landed a hundred thousand dollar wine cellar using this this brochure, uh, and he contributes it completely to that brochure. He figured out how to productize the intangibles. Now, some of you say, well, that's just a design, Brad. Yeah, I get that, but he figured out how to do it in five minutes versus having to actually go in and learn an entire design software or hire a designer to do all that. He standardized it, he productized that experience. And it's unique to every single client. It's not the same brochure. Every brochure is different for the client. That's what we're talking about, right? Don't wait for lightning to strike for you to figure it out. You just make three to five repeatable hot dogs. That's it. How can you make the same hot dog experience for everyone when it's not a hot dog? And that's really all it is about. How can you productize the experience so that it's repeatable? No matter if it's you doing it or a salesperson doing it or a lead guy out there, you productize the experience, the intangibles. That is where the value lies. It does not lie in your accolades, it does not lie in how many years you've been in business, it does not lie in just reviews alone. People are buying the experience and how you make them feel. And that is what sales is about. Sales is not giving someone a piece of paper and then praying, laying in bed at night, praying, like, oh God, please help me. I need this job. Please help them accept this estimate because we really need it. That is not a sales process. That's not a value-added sales process. That's a hope and a prayer. Literally, a hope and a prayer. Start looking at areas of your business where you can provide unique experiences that none of your competition is doing. And yes, even on the back end, you know, we want to create unique products. We've talked about this before. If you do kitchens, maybe you have uh monogrammed cutting boards that you give them. Um, if it if you're a landscaper, I know one client would build like a whole, take like a uh natural stone and like have their name etched into it, you know, at the beginning of the trail. Like there's all kinds of ways you can do it. And it's not just, it doesn't even have to be related to the actual uh product that you're doing. One of my clients, Jacob, um, during the process of remodeling the bathroom, there they had a new baby, and he went out and had a baby blanket embroidered with their baby's name on it. Those are opportunities after the sale is made to continue raising the bar. And those are amazing. But we're talking about is before the sale is made, you can do the same thing without having to spend a crap ton of money and without having to uh, you know, uh provide them with a bunch of extra stuff. The value is in the experience. And that's the that's the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to be able to sell jobs at a higher profit margin, the true value is in the experience you give the client. It's not in the words on a piece of paper. I promise you. Guys, that's the end of the episode. Thanks for hanging out. Uh, if you want Jonathan to come on the episode and then and talk about his business, leave a comment. Go to hammergrindpodcast.com and leave a comment, uh, encouraging him to want to jump on here so we can interview him. He's kind of shy, uh, I'll tell you that. But we, you know, I think maybe we can encourage him if we get enough people saying, Yeah, I want to hear about Jonathan. All right. So go to the website and leave a review. Or if you see this clip on YouTube or whatever, leave it in the comments. Then we I can go to Jonathan and be like, hey man, look, there's there's 50 people here, there's 500 people here that said they want to hear your story. You gotta come and do it. Then we can convince them, all right? Thanks for hanging out. You can always leave us a comment, you can always give us ideas for future upcoming episodes. If there's any topic that you would like to hear more about, please reach out and let me know, and uh be happy to do that for you. Guys, you can find us in the show notes. You can go to the website, you can go to social media, it's all in the show notes. And remember, until next time, profit is not a dirty word.
