EP75: Interview with Travis Gunter

And you do have a business partner, correct?

Okay. So there's two of you and do you have any full-time employees?

Well, I think everybody can relate to that statement right there. Everybody knows the whole thing about having so many, not having as many, hiring, starting. I can remember lots of times where I remember one time I hired this guy and he, he was a little cocky. I mean, but he kind of had their resume to back it up. he was supposed to start on a Monday morning and I was actually working on my own deck at my house. It was like the hottest week of the year, like a hundred plus degrees and eight o 'clock shows up. He's not there. I called him up. I said, dude, like, where are you at? What's going on? Oh, I took another job. Yeah, I took another job. It's, it's, it's a travel job, pays more money and all this stuff. And I was like, what the, what the hell? Like, why didn't you just tell me that you could have just said, Hey, I'm not going to be there Monday. And what's funny about that story, Travis, is like three months later, he calls me up. Hey, man, I talked to you a few months ago about a job and, you know, I ended up taking this other job and it's not really working out. They got me traveling all over the place. And I just wanted to see if, you know, if you still had a position. I said, yeah, I do have a position, but not for you. I mean, if you would have just, you know, if you would have just told me ahead of time that you were taking another job, I probably would have given you another chance. That stuff blows my mind. I know a lot of contractors relate to that. I hope for you the guy shows up in a couple weeks.

How did that come about? Because that's an interesting topic. How did you hire someone from Texas?

Okay. So you, he just found he's, he's moving to Reno maybe for a spouse, for somebody or for whatever reason, he's just moving out there. He was going to move out to Reno already. He was looking for a job. So gotcha. Okay. I've had a few of those types of people too, that move in and, you know, are moving here and they're looking for a job. And then, so I understand that. A funny story. One time I had a kid and he was, he was, I say kid, he was like 18 years old and he moved, he was moving here from not too far away, about an hour and a half away, but he was moving here. And so I waited, he was in the national guard. He was a engineer in the national guard. So engineers in the military do like construction, right? They do bulldozers, build houses, whatever. And so I thought he had a lot of experience. He said, I got three years experience in construction. I'm like, cool. He's a young kid, but being in the military, you know, disciplined, all that stuff. And he came and I'll never forget this. After he started working for me, I'm like, this guy, this kid does not have that much experience. Like he was really struggling with basic stuff. And we were driving one day down the road. And I said, well, tell me, tell me where your experience is from. I know you said you had three years experience and we didn't really get into like where that was. Like, how did you get three years experience? He goes, oh, that's. In the National Guard, when you go through school, which school was like eight weeks long or whatever it was for engineering school, they tell you at the end that this eight weeks that you just went through is the equivalent of three years of real world experience. That's what he told me driving down the road. And I was like, yeah, man, I wouldn't tell anybody that again because that doesn't translate well.

So he was a good kid, man. I tried to help him out. But some people, they just, you know, they got to help themselves out first. They just don't get it, right? Yeah, they just don't get it. So anyways, so let's talk some shop for a second. I know you do a lot of tile. Like you personally and your company does a lot of tile as part of like bathrooms and stuff. Is that kind of like your, would you say your main skill set, you personally?

Okay. When you say running the shop, you mean like the business side of it or the actual physical, like running the jobs production side of it?

So how is your structure set up? Because I know a lot of people listening to this, they probably have partnerships, right? And so... How is your particular business set up in terms of responsibility? What do you do and what does your business partner do?

Gotcha. Okay. And I know that you've been working on your business a lot over the last six months. I mean, really diving in, trying to create the processes, figure out a system that works. How has that been going for you and your business?

Are you going to run two crews like, I didn't mean to cut you off. Are you going to run two crews, like one sub crew and then in-house crew? Or how are you going to, how are you going to structure that?

That's kind of how I ran my business. It was a hybrid. I call it a hybrid where you have in-house people and you have subcontracting crews and you kind of co-mingle, do both. It's hard to do 100% sub only. because there's still things that need to be done, right? A lot of times, somebody's got to put the floor protection down. Somebody's got to haul the trash off or whatever it might be. Somebody's got to set up plastic, all those different things, these little things that have to happen on a regular basis. And if you're just doing sub only, that usually is you doing that work, you know, half the day and the other half of the day, you're trying to run jobs. And if you're doing a sub only model, a lot of times you got to have three or four jobs going at once to make it worth your while. So I personally kind of like the hybrid approach. It's interesting. Some of the challenges that I had in my business was just keeping everyone busy, like keeping my employees busy. Because a lot of times, you know, you're subbing out a job and they're just going to be whatever it is. But then you also got to sell jobs and have your guys, keep your guys busy. So it's almost like... Sometimes you almost have to choose between, oh, am I going to sub this job out or we're going to have to put our guys on there because they need work? Have you ran into that problem yet?

Right. Right. Cause you got it. You'll have your, your crews doing their thing. You don't have to worry about being there. Just when you're there, you're an extra help. You know, you're an extra hand to get the job done quicker. I know a lot of guys are probably, you know, maybe want to get to that point and they're still small or maybe it's just them and one helper, right? And they're the lead, they have a helper and they're on the job 24-7. And I'm sure you guys, you and your partner started out that way. It was probably just the two of you when you first started, which is a little bit different because when you have a business partner, you know, you're equally invested in the company. And so it's, and you're probably somewhat equally, I know you said your business partner is, much better at the trades but i mean you still you can hold your own and so you're equally skilled in that sense versus a kid who has no experience and he's just fetching boards for you and grabbing your tools how is that journey for you of like starting let me back up when did you start your business how long you've been in business

Yeah. So you're only like a year and a half in to your business, really. And then how did you go from doing like handyman stuff to doing bigger projects?

Yeah, and that's the exact same path I took. I started out as a handyman because I really only had... like $1,500 cash in the bank. I had a truck and a few tools and I'm like, well, I can't really start a full blown remodeling company. I don't have the team. I don't have the tools. I don't have the financial aspects. So I started out as a handyman and that like, just like what you said, Hey, why, you know, you go out there to clean their gutters, right? And it's like, while you're here, would you mind looking at this? I need a new front door. Or it's, hey, my bathroom is, I was thinking about getting a bathroom model. Do you do that kind of stuff? So that's interesting that you had the same path. Now, through my business, I maintained both aspects. So we did handyman and remodeling. And really the handyman side of it was for kind of like what we talked about earlier. It just kept us busy. The handyman stuff kept us busy all year round. But the handyman fed the remodeling business. You know, someone, it's very easy to take a risk on someone to have them come out and like fix your front door because it's, you know, squeaking or doesn't close right, right? And it's only a few hundred dollars to do that repair. It's easy for someone to take that risk if they don't know you. And then when you're there and you're professional and you're wearing polo shirts and you're embroidered, my company was dressed to the nines and professional. It's super easy for someone to be like, And you guys got your crap together. I got a bathroom remodel. Would you like to look at it and give me an estimate on it? And I'm like, yep, sure can. And so most of our remodeling business actually came from relationships that we established through the handyman side of the business. So it's an interesting dynamic. I would say this, though, about the handyman business. It's extremely, extremely difficult to scale a handyman business. Because we would do, on average, we would do 300 jobs a year. That's a lot. That's a lot of scheduling. That's a lot. That's a lot of scheduling. That's a lot of phone calls. That's a lot of leads to go through. That's kind of what helped me get really good at managing leads. Because we would get, I'd get 600,700 leads a year that I had to go through. And that's a lot, man.

I'm good,

When I hear contractors talking about, man, we do 15 jobs a year and I just have so many leads to go through. I'm like, well, how many leads are you getting? And they're like, well, we get about 75 leads. And I just laugh at them. I'm like, dude, I get 75 in one month. Like, that's easy. So what's your take on the contracting industry as a whole right now, at least in your area? What do you see going on in general with contractors, like just the industry?

You can. I just keep it to a minimum.

Oh, that's the same thing I hear everywhere. I mean, I hear that exact same thing. Everybody I talk to all across the country and the world for that matter. It's super easy right now to stand out as a contractor. Like if you just do...

It's like the bar is below

If you just return a phone call, like you're 60% better than everyone else.

I know that you... I mean, you weren't in business during this time, but you're doing the same thing that I did for basically the same reason, is that the reason why you treat everybody with respect is because you don't know, one, who they know, and two, they may be a future customer just because you can't help them right now, right? So you're feeding essentially the future. When I started in 2009, which was in the housing market crash, people were leaving the trades and you had to call people back because... you wouldn't get to work if you didn't. Like you, you may get two calls a week, right? So like you needed every single lead that came in. So you were calling every single person back because you needed those leads. And so I always carried that forward. And I, even when I was getting 600 leads a year, I would still 99% of the time would respond and say like, at least say, Hey, thank you so much. Unfortunately, we're, you know, we're booked up. We're not taking on anybody for six months or whatever it was, or we don't do that type of work. Or call this company. They can help you. Because people appreciate that. And here's what's crazy about that, Travis. I know you know this, but there was times where I wouldn't call them. I get so busy with running the jobs and being shorthanded and getting so many leads. Sometimes I wouldn't call them back for two weeks. And I'd say, hey, Travis, I know you reached out two weeks ago. I apologize for the delay. I just wanted to get back with you and let you know. Unfortunately, I can't help you with that project. But I did want to reach out to you. And they were still appreciative of the fact that I got back with them, even though it was two weeks later.

Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't take much. Doesn't take much. Although I did get one lady give me a bad review one time. She sent me an email or she filled out a form or whatever. And she's like, hey, I need some help with this. And sometimes you can just tell in the language and the email or whatever, this person's going to be a major pain in the butt. And that's kind of what it was. And I just responded and I was like, sorry, thanks for contacting us. Unfortunately, I don't remember what I said. We're not taking on any more work or I can't help you with that project, whatever it was. And it was like a day later. She called or left an email. A day later, I emailed her back, said, hey, I can't help you. And then she responded with like, well, can't you recommend somebody else? Can't you at least recommend somebody else? And I was like, yeah, I should. I could. Next day, I get a one-star review on Google because I waited a day to email her back, and I did not recommend someone else.

No, no, you can't. And that, you know, and there's nothing you can do about those people. Only thing you can do with bad reviews like that is just drown them out with a bunch of good reviews. So it's always important to get as many reviews as you can. And one thing I always, here's a tip for people listening is whenever someone leaves you a review, make sure you respond to that review. Every single one I had on my Google, I think I had about 122 reviews. And I responded to all 122 of them. Because that just shows that the owner is actively engaged in his business. And I don't know, have you had any bad reviews yet at all?

good. That's good. Well, here's a tip for you and anyone listening. When you do get a bad review, the proper way to respond to that review... is to acknowledge it. Just say, you know, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I mean, as long as it's not like the crazy lady that I had, leave me a review. But, you know, thank you for bringing it to our attention, depending on what the review says. And then, you know, we've put processes in place to make sure this never happens again. Essentially, it's acknowledging if you did actually make a mistake, if you dropped a ball or whatever. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We make sure we never do it again. The reason why that's important is because it shows that you, one, you're not, I mean, it's almost better sometimes to have bad reviews because it shows that you're like legitimate person and make mistakes. Sometimes people think that when you have like 15 five-star reviews, that like 15 of them or all of them are from your buddies, right? Like they don't know if they're legit or not. And so when you have a bad review, use that to your advantage and don't, I remember one time a buddy of mine has a car. He owns a used car dealership. And the lady got on there and left a bad review. It was like, hey, they told me they weren't going to pull my credit. They did. Hurt my credit score, blah, blah, blah. And he gets on there and just starts saying like, we told you that. We told you it was going to pull the credit. And they start having like an argument back and forth in the reviews. And I texted him. I saw it. I texted him. And I was like, dude, you need to like delete those or get rid of it. Don't do that anymore. Because just because of the reviews and what you're saying, I wouldn't buy a car from you. Because you're looking like an ass right now. Yeah, you're looking like an ass right now. Regardless if they're 100% wrong and you're 100% right, don't make your people look like it's their fault. Because you would be the one that will suffer from that. So that's a little mini lesson in bad reviews. The last topic I want to talk about, and I know that this is one of your favorites. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about contractors who don't charge enough for their services.

Let's go. What's your thought on that? Let me hit it from a different angle. Are you the most expensive in your town that you know of? Are there others that are just as expensive? What's the ratio that you would say in your town?

Goals, man. That's goals.

I call that the crazy cycle, right? Where you have to work more hours to make more money. So you're working six, seven days a week. You're working 15-hour days just because you need to make more money to pay your bills. And it's like... And this is where I think a lot of contractors make the wrong mistake. I've talked about this many times in different areas, but a lot of contractors want to scale. You hear them a lot of times talk about, I need to scale my business. I need to hire more employees because they believe that hiring more employees means they make more money. It makes sense, right? You hire an employee, you pay them 20 bucks an hour, you charge 50 bucks an hour, you make some money off of them. That makes total sense. But what they do wrong is that they don't maximize their profit first. In other words, if you're a one-man show, even if you're a handyman, if you're a one-man show or you have a helper, you're a small team, you maximize how much money you can make first, right? Like you charge the maximum amount that you could possibly get. And then when you can't charge anymore with just the two of you because you're hitting the ceiling with pricing, then you start bringing on people to scale. But I see people that they're not making enough money. They're working 60,70 hours a week. And they hire people because they think it's going to alleviate the problem of them not working as much. And all that does is exacerbate the problem. Yeah. It scales the problem, right?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, it's interesting on the material side of things, like you were saying, even if you don't charge, even if you don't mark up materials, maybe you're the contractor that wants the customer to buy the materials because you don't want to mess with it. That's fine. If that's what you want to do, that's okay. But if that's the case, then you need to be charging like three times your labor. You need to make up for the markup in your labor or your overhead or profit, however you want to. label it or call it or whatever. You don't just take your labor and then add 20% on top of that for profit and that's all you do because you will go out of business doing that. That's a fact. Or you will burn yourself into the ground.

the wind literally shattered literally

yes it's

Well, not only that, but the hours that you work on the job is not what you're getting paid. There's profit above the labor itself, right? The company itself needs to make money, not just you.

Well, yeah. If you ask them and if they tell you differently, then they're wrong. They haven't been listening to the Hammer and Grind podcast.

I know we're in a common group that focuses around tile installers. I'm not going to say who it is, but the comments and the posts in there are sometimes comical. A lot of times I just don't even comment on them because it's not even worth trying to comment. But there's some good stuff that happens, comments and posts in there. The recent one was about working for general contractors. This was like, you know, tile. Do you see

Yeah. Well, there was a couple of them. I don't know. I think one of them, I don't know if you were on there or not, but there was a couple of posts recently about working for general contractors as a tile subcontractor. You know, all general contractors want the cheapest bid and all this stuff, which is not true, by the way. Most of the general contractors I know are not looking for the cheapest bid. But I think this is an important point. And you being a general contractor and you having subs, that work for you. What's important in terms of your subs? When you're hiring a subcontractor, what's the stuff that's important to you?

Do you think that the reason why they don't call you back is because they're, maybe it's because they're not managing their time well and they don't have enough time? Or is it because they're almost embarrassed? Like they forgot to do it, they drop the ball and then they get embarrassed and then they just don't call you back and hope that you go away. Probably that.

The one thing I wanted to kind of illustrate and you, and which is what you said, it's, it's not the price point as what determines whether you hire a subcontractor. It's everything else, right? It's, are they making your life easier or are they making your life harder? And usually the ones that, In my experience, the ones that are charging more, like maybe they know their value and they are charging more for what they do, but they're having trouble securing jobs with contractors, general contractors, is because they're not good at everything else. They may be the best at what they do, but they suck at communication. And I can make a blanket statement that in general, because we're in the trades. We're in the trades because we weren't good at accounting or good at IT or good at sales. You know what I mean? We're not naturally good at communication. We're just good at fixing things and building things. And so by nature, for most contractors, they have to develop that skill set of communication and develop that skill set of sales and all of those things. And that's the stuff that matters the most. It's not the actual... you know, tile that you install. It's not the drywall you finish. It's not the electrical you do. It's none of that stuff. It's everything but that. And that's the hardest thing as a coach that I've had trying to explain to people that it's not about that stuff. What's your thoughts on that? And we'll wrap it up after that.

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself, Travis. So one last question on the learning side of like, I always like to ask this question to every guest. What is a current book you're reading or what's one book that you would recommend to someone?

He's reaching for his book.

That's a great one. It is.

There you go. Three recommendations. Read Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. And don't read Getting to Yes. I don't know who's the author on that one. So those are your three recommendations. From Travis. For books, yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's lots of other things out there that you can... Maybe this is the first podcast someone's ever listened to. And if you guys didn't listen to the beginning, I actually do have a coaching program where I kind of teach contractors this stuff. So maybe you might want to check that out too. That's a little famous plug there at the end. So, Travis, I appreciate you being on here. Any parting thoughts for someone listening to this that it's like your takeaway that you want them to... Like a gold nugget or just a final thought?

That's solid advice. I love it. So Travis, if somebody wanted to get a hold of you and just have a conversation or ask you some questions or say hi, how can they do that? How can people get a hold of you?

And also on our Discord channel, which you can find us. That's a search for Hammer and Grind on Discord. And you can chat with Travis and I in there. Yeah. So again, I appreciate you being on here, Travis. Great conversation about the industry and I hope you have a great rest of your day. Guys, if you want to learn more about where we're at, you can find us on all the social media platforms too. Just search for Hammer and Grind Podcast on TikTok as well. Instagram, Facebook, the Contractor Profit Group and Discord. You can search us there. I appreciate you tuning in on this podcast episode. And until next time, guys, you know what to do. Be the best version of you.