EP77: Interview With Shane Robinson

absolutely. So we know each other for a little while, and I wanted to have you on just to kind of talk about construction, talk about what you're seeing out there in the field. We can talk about post-frame construction. All kinds of things. So let's start with, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your business, what you guys do.

So Gillette, is that like, does the Gillette razor have anything to do with where you guys are? No. Coincidence. No,

I had to ask. I wasn't for sure.

Okay, so you're in post-frame construction. Now, you said that you've had your business for six years, been doing post-frame for five. What did you do the first year in business?

Gotcha. So he owned a bunch of investment properties, saw an opportunity to have someone basically do the work for him, which would be probably a little bit of a discount for him. And then that's how you got your start. And then a year later, you started doing post-frame. So you said, I guess you're no longer business partners with him?

okay. Okay. But you made the transition to start doing post-frame. Why did you make that? Why did you specifically go into post-frame construction?

So the Lester building, is that a supplier manufacturer or?

So you have, and this is, we're not sponsored by Lester. Maybe we need to recall them and get a sponsorship deal out of it. But they are, do they have exclusive packages? Like you're the exclusive dealer for a hundred mile radius or whatever? Or does, how's that work?

I have a very, very, and this is not post-frame. This is structural steel, but it's kind of the same process. I have very limited experience. I used to be a project manager or construction manager rather for a developer. And we did a steel frame strip mall and we hired an erector. But they go through a package company similar to what you guys would have. And they design it. And they have in-house engineers. And they put their stamps on it and all that stuff. And then they ship out the materials. So, I imagine it's kind of the same process. Just steel instead of mostly wood. But, yeah. Okay, so you got into the post frame part of it. And that's pretty much all you do, right? Like, you're not doing. I mean, you do like. Do you do the whole thing turnkey? Do you sub out part of it? How do you guys have that set up?

Okay, so you're not like... oh, my cousin's an electrician. Can you do all the electrical? And then you finish it. You're like, well, we'll do it all up until the rough end. And then you take over from there. Like we do it all or we don't, we'll stop at a certain point.

So this is smart. And I want to dive into this for a second because this is actually really smart. Why do you do that?

Yeah. It sounds like that you're doing this because that's how you control the outcome. That's how you control the cost. That's how you control the quality and the timeline. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So this piggybacks on a post that I saw on a Facebook group the other day. The guy was in a tile group and he was complaining that the customer was providing the materials. Right? Like he was doing the labor. They were providing the tile. They get halfway through the project. They run out of tile because the customer didn't order enough. And now he's... sitting, like, I think it was like, might've been like 30 days or something crazy that they had to wait on the new tile because it was special order. And so he's out of work for so many days. Maybe it was three days. I don't remember, but he's, he's out of work for so many days on that project. And he's asking, you know, for advice on how to handle that. And, uh, you know, I responded, but my, and anyone listening, this is why you should always provide materials for jobs and why you should always. control the entire project like Shane's doing because that's how you provide the guaranteed outcome, essentially. Right? And I use the analogy, would you drive a car and let someone else control the gas and brakes? Would you, Shane? Would you let someone else?

Because that's what you're doing, right? You might be driving the car, but if someone's like, oh, no, we're stopping right here. Like, what the hell? Like, let's go, let's go, let's go. We got to get this done. So that's a good analogy. And I'm sure you've learned this through not doing it that way, right? Through experience. Have you ever had situations where the customer was kind of wanting to do some of this and you were letting it, you know, you were letting them do this and then you had... it affected the outcome and then the customer started complaining about the outcome. Has that ever happened to you?

And, and, and that's why, that's why I want to do these podcast interviews is because I've, I've done it myself, right? I used to let people provide materials. I used to let them buy the vanity. to do a vanity swap in a bathroom and we get out there and it's a cheap Lowe's vanity and it doesn't work. It's like, no, this won't work for what you're wanting to do. And they don't know any better, right? It's not necessarily the customer's fault because they want to provide the materials. They think they can get it cheaper and they're going to save some money. But if you're a contractor and you're listening to this, this is how you... This is how you actually provide a better quality product to your customers is by controlling every aspect of it. Would you agree with that?

How do you communicate to them that they're not saving money or...

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think they probably aren't saving money. In some cases, it is cheaper for them to provide materials, right? I mean, I teach and you also do something similar in your business, but, you know, I teach to mark up materials 100%, right? So if someone, let's use the vanity again as an example, if someone's buying a $500 vanity. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to market up $500. So it's a thousand dollar vanity. So if they provide the vanity themselves, they're in a sense, in a sense, they're saving $500, right? Now you and I both know it's not that, it's not that straightforward, right? There's all kinds of little things in there, but they could, the customer could potentially save a few hundred dollars by providing the materials, but there may be a cost to that. Because if we do come out there and the vanity doesn't work, and now we have to wait a day or we got to pull off or they have to run to the store and get a new one or whatever it is, it could potentially end up costing them more money in the long run. So that $500 savings, they may end up costing them $600 to do that. So the way I convey that to clients or customers is simply, one, I just tell them I don't do it. Like I won't. I won't work with them. We provide a turnkey solution, kind of like what you were saying. We'll do a certain part of the project, but I'm not going to piecemeal out different areas because this is how we control the outcome and the quality of the product. A lot of times, like with tile, I use a specific tile vendor. And I say, no, you need to go to this vendor. This is where we buy the tile. Yes, you can go to Lowe's and you can buy something that looks similar for cheaper, but it's not the same quality. So this is how we provide the quality project from start to finish. And if you have a problem with that, then we're probably not going to be a good fit for you. I mean, in a 30,000 foot view, that's how I convey that to my customers. How do you do it?

Yeah, allowance sheet.

Sure. I'm not going to go out and buy my own Pobarn package. Now, I mean, I could go to Menards, you know, I could go to Menards and buy a Pobarn package. Has anyone ever tried to do that with you? Yeah.

What's a hybrid version? What's that mean?

So when you say hybrid, you're just being like you have other options in terms of vendors. Yep. Okay. I got you. But you, I mean, you primarily use that one company. And then if you need to augment, you have options there. So you're not like using half of a Menards package and then half of another one. It's like, it's all or none, basically. Have you had any pushback with, in terms of leads or sales from people that do want to, you know, do some of the work or whatever, and you're like, no, this is how we do it. Like, what kind of... What kind of response are you getting and what's usually the outcome of those types of things?

So I want to segue into the leads and stuff. Right now, in your area, what you're doing, what are you seeing in terms of lead flow? Are you seeing it slow down a little bit other than normal seasonal things? Are you seeing the lead flow slow down? Is it increasing? What are you seeing where you're at?

So did you start increasing your marketing because you're in a sense... you're anticipating a change in the marketplace or just because of you trying to scale your business and that's just part of your growth plan? Yeah.

Well, I'm in Indiana. So, you know, it's funny. A lot of the trends and when we had the 2008 recession, housing market crash, it really didn't affect us until 2009. So, you know, everything happens on the coast, right? California, the East Coast, and even down in Florida. And then it slowly works its way in towards the Midwest. And so we're always six months to a year behind the curve. So it's probably similar to where you guys are as well as far as the lasting effects of that. So you're not really seeing a slowdown in leads, but also you've upped your marketing. So that may be offsetting some of that slowdown or you may just not even, you know. may not be having a slowdown yet. You might not have a slowdown for six months or a year based on that, what's happening. I'm just curious because I'm trying to get some, I'm trying to ask people all over the country, you know, what they're seeing just to kind of get an idea in terms of the, you know, lead volume in the economy. Do you have any concerns about... the economy in the future in terms of slowing down a real recession maybe even depression is that a concern of yours or you're just like i don't think it's going to happen

yeah yeah i mean you've been in for five years and in your business so when you started we weren't in the boom that we're in right now or have been in the last two years right so you got a kind of a pre-boom taste of like how hard it is to yeah get leads and be profitable and all that in your business. I think there's going to be a lot of contractors come the end of 2023 are going to be out of business, if not before then. Do you agree or disagree with that? Let me rephrase my statement. Contractors that have started their business in the last couple of years, that started during the boom, do you think they're going to have enough? experience or take enough precautions to prevent that from happening.

If not out of business. I know you see it. I see it all the time. You see the guys that start. In the boom, they throw a magnet on the side of the truck. Their phone starts ringing off the hook and they're like, man, this contracting stuff's easy. I'm making money. I'm going to go buy a brand new truck and a bunch of toys and a boat and four-wheeler and side-by-side.

I don't know about you, but I see those guys at Home Depot and Lowe's and I just laugh at them. I just shake my head and laugh. I'm like, you're going to be out of business in six months to a year.

Exactly. And I've had this conversation many times about don't spend your money when you make it, right? Because you need to plan. I was watching a TikTok video the other day. This was like kind of recording a mastermind of a bunch of millionaires and billionaires in a room. Okay. People that know how to make money. And the one guy that was talking. He used to be, I don't know if he was the CEO or the president or whatever, but he was in a Fortune 500 company, a very large corporation. And he said that they had, the question was asked, like, how much reserves do you keep on hand for your business? And he said that they kept a two-year operating reserve in their business. So they had enough money in the bank, liquid, that they could pay their expenses for two years without making one sale. I would be hard pressed to find a lot of contractors that have one month's reserve in their, in their bank. I'm just curious, like, do you have those types of contingencies in place for your business?

Well, yeah. Yeah.

But I, but you have more than a month.

I like to. You run your company lean. Like you paid off your debts, run it super lean.

I mean, eventually you'll have to buy a new vehicle. Eventually you'll have to buy new equipment, but you're making plans for that for the future so that you're not going to be going out and getting a loan. Right. I'm just, I'm guessing because I know you're a smart guy. So I just thought it was interesting. that these people that are very wealthy are saying two years. I've said you need to have three to six months of operating reserves. Three months is a minimum that you should have in operating reserves. They're saying two years. And hell, for a lot of contractors, it would take two years just to get six months of reserves. Right? And so let alone have a two-year operating reserve. It's just interesting to me how... People that are very successful, and by success, I mean, you know, financially successful, how they look at money and how they look at risk in that perspective. I think for a lot of contractors, and you can tell me if you agree, disagree, I think for a lot of contractors, we're not businessmen, right? Like, we know how to build post-frame buildings. We know how to remodel bathrooms. We know how to do, you know, replace roofs and pour concrete and all these different trades. And we're really good at it. But we never stop to actually get business education. It's something that I think we really, really, as an industry-wide, I think we really need to start being better at being better at business. Would you agree or disagree with that?

We've had that conversation before, but you didn't hire an office manager. You hired all your crew or a lot of your crew and then you end up hiring an office manager, right? Yep. But now that you've hired an office manager, you're like, I can't. I don't know how I did this business without one and I would never want to do it without ever having one.

How do you, this is another good topic to deep dive in. So how did you come to the decision to hire an office manager? How did you get to that point? And you're like, I need to hire an office manager and then execute on that.

Oh, yeah. 100%. I mean, there's things that they will come up with. They're like, hey, you know, you really need to do this in your company. And then they start doing it. Or they may just see a void in what you're doing and just start doing it. And you may not even really know to the full extent of what all they do in your company. So what I'm hearing you say is that that was a very important decision that you made, a position that you hired for, even though you didn't have the complete foresight of what was going to turn into. But looking back on it now, that was one of your best hires you ever made. Yep. How did that change how you worked in your business and your focus and all that? What did that do for you as a business owner?

Do you have any tips on hiring office managers? Just nothing crazy, just some general tips on what they should do or do's or don'ts on hiring an office manager based on your experience?

Now, a lot of people listening to this, Shane, are going to say, I mean, I'd love to have an office manager. I mean, I would hire one in a heartbeat. I know I need that help, but I just can't afford it. You know what I mean? Because it's an expense, right? It's not. It's not an income producing job like a carpenter or something. What would you say to those people that have that thought of, I just can't afford it? Okay.

Yeah, that's really good advice. I use the term and you kind of repeated it about not a revenue generating position. But if you really look at what they do, they do generate revenue, right? I know you know this. I'm speaking to the listeners. They do generate revenue. They generate revenue by freeing up your time. And then that extra time that you're freed up with can now be spent producing more revenue for your business. So that is in turn is a revenue producing activity in your business by hiring them. Not only that, they just like... keep, get your sanity, your sanity back, right? Like you're not trying to do a hundred thousand things a day. Now, now you're only doing 50,000 things a day, right? Cause you offloaded all those and all of the little balls, all of the little value added activities that you do, like calling customers after the job's done, sending out thank yous or, you know, gifts and all that, that you just didn't do in the past because you just did not have enough time. Now you're able to have someone do those things. And then now you're able to actually even increase the value of your company, which in turn allows you to charge more. And so those are all, you know, that position is so central to the entire health of the company in terms of how you can bring quality to your projects and your clients. Would you agree with all that? Yep.

I like what you said about hiring part-time. I think a lot of people get hung up in this idea that if they hire someone, it's got to be a full-time person. They got to have all these amenities and blah, blah, blah, blah. One of the things when I started, when I hired my first office manager, my office was in my house. I had a dedicated office, but it was in my house. And, you know, I had the head trash of no one's going to want to work in my house, right? They don't want to come to my house and work. Or I don't know if I want someone working in my house, especially if I'm not there. Right. But long story short, I found someone who was more than happy to work in my house. It wasn't a problem. You know, they had it. She had a designated space, but it was still in my house and it worked out fine. Like it was not a problem. You can hire part time people. There are people out there that are looking for part time revenue. You don't have to hire full time. Don't get stuck in this idea that you have to go out and hire a full-time person who's going to work in your office. And if you don't have an office, you got to go rent an office and then add all his overhead and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't have to do that.

Yeah. So a few more questions here for you, Shane. How do you find employees like your labor force?

Awesome. And so maybe you don't know because you said your office manager handled it. Was it like from an Indeed application or post or whatever? How did that come about?

So you said something important there I wanted to touch on. You said that your company looks like a legitimate company. You have branding in place. You actually look like you know what you're doing, even though maybe sometimes you don't, but you still have the appearance. How much do you think appearance, meaning your branding, your website, your company vehicles, your uniforms, how much of that do you think affects the quality of the employees that you hire?

You mean you actually communicate with your team? Yep. Yep. That sounds like a wildly crazy idea. Mind-blowing. Like actually communicating with your team.

I know we're joking about it, but I mean, it literally is. Like it's so important to your business to have a morning meeting. you know, tailgate meeting, whatever you want to call it. Like you got to have some type of meeting, whether it's you or a foreman or, you know, project manager or somebody, you got to have some meetings to keep things going. Right. Yeah. That's, that's some good stuff. I like that. The, uh, I'm a big proponent on the appearance. Obviously you have to have some, you know, some wherewithal, you got to have some systems in place. You got to have some processes and things. If, you know, if you're a, if you look like a homeless man, right. In terms of your appearance. You're probably not going to attract a, you know, a multimillion dollar CEO to come in and be a general manager of your business. Right. Like probably not going to happen. Does that mean you have to have a brand new truck and everything's got to be brand new and super clean and all that? No, it does not mean that at all. But you can't be wearing your Budweiser T-shirt, you know, khaki shorts and flip flops and, you know, Bass Pro Shop hat. And then expect to have a good image of people that want to work for you. I'm sure someone's listening to this is going to say, yeah, but that's me and I'm very successful. And I'm like, great. You're the auditive, right? You're the exception to the rule. And this one thing that everyone wants to be or think is that everyone thinks they're the exception to the rule. Let me be one to tell you, you're not the exception to the rule. until you actually are the exception to the rule. So if you have a wildly successful company and you wear t-shirts, Budweiser, bass hats, flip-flops, and you want to come on the podcast, please reach out to me because I want to interview you. I'm going to guess that an overwhelming majority of the people that listen to this are not in that place. So appearance is definitely important to that. We're pushing right up to 45 minutes and I don't want to take any more of your time, Shane. What's some parting advice that you have for contractors that are listening to this? It could be about anything. What do you think or feel like is something that's super important that's led you to where you are in your business and the successes that you've had?

did.

Don't go at it alone. Surround yourself with good people and get the advice. I love it. I love it. What's a book that you're reading currently or if you're not reading one, what's one that you recommend is a good book?

Yeah. Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller. Great book. Yeah, absolutely. Great book. Awesome. Well, Shane, if somebody wanted to reach out to you and just find out about your business or maybe they, I don't know, maybe they want to sell you something. Maybe that probably wouldn't be a good thing. But if somebody wanted to reach out to you and pick your brain, how can they, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Awesome. So, Ycam. net is his website. You guys go check it out and reach out to him through there if you need to. Shane, I appreciate you so much being on the show and talking about your business. I know a lot of contractors who are listening are going to benefit from a lot of the advice that you gave. And so, I just really appreciate you being on the show. Yep.

So guys, you know where to find me and listen to the podcast. If you're not already, I mean, you should be because you're hearing me say this, but you can find us also on all the social media platforms. Just search for Hammer and Grind Podcast, TikTok, Discord, Instagram, Facebook. Check out my free Facebook group, the Contractor Profit group. And as always, guys, until next time, be the best version of you.